Day Sailers and old sailors

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Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby talbot » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:37 pm

We are facing a tough decision that we hope someone can help us with. My wife has some serious back problems, and for the last couple of years, sailing on the DS has been something of an ordeal for her. One problem is the straight seatback of the original DS II. Another is the need to switch sides constantly on any small unballasted boat. She was the one who got us into our current DS, but now she can't really enjoy it.

We are making payments now on a Precision 21 keelboat, and we both love it--both the comfort of the cockpit and the ability to sleep over. But we miss the speed of the planing hull, not to mention having a boat we can easily take to new waters, row through the shallows, and lift off its trailer for maintenance. Nevertheless, this is probably our last year with the DS, unless we can find a way for us both to use it. Does anyone have any suggestions for making the DS more accommodating for someone who can't move easily?
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby jeadstx » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:57 am

I don't move easily about my DS any more with my bad knees. I got an O'Day Mariner for my cruising needs and the DS is used mainly for racing these days. When racing the DS, I have been getting a helmsman who can move a little faster, with me forward. When I'm forward, I can switch sides a bit faster. The Mariner I can move about the cockpit easier than the DS. The Mariner cockpit is a little deeper, the seats are a little wider. Seems easier to move around. Last spring I got a 1969 DS I and now that the title has been cleaned up with the state and the re-rigging and trailer work is near complete, I will (hopefully) be getting it on the water soon. I'm wondering what differences there will be between the DS I and the DS II in moving around in the boat. I already know I am going to like the seat cushions that came with the DS I (the seat cushions on the Mariner have spoiled me).

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby talbot » Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:53 pm

Get a bigger boat. I was afraid of that.
We already got the bigger boat; the issue is how to make the small one usable.
One thing would be to find decent back support. Another would be to rerig the lines so that they are clear of the crew.

I think you'll find the thwarts on the DS 1 are nice. You don't have to go all the way from sitting sideways on one tank to sideways on the other. You can slide across on the thwart (ok, with a little jump to get over the CB trunk.)
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby GreenLake » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:25 pm

One thing you can do on a DSII when sitting forward is to lean against the bulkhead closing off the cuddy. Means facing backwards but it's not a bad position, esp. on longer downwind legs. Speaking of which, on the same downwind legs, the helmsperson benefits from a simple board laid across from seat to seat. It allows a rotated seating position. Some outfits sell portable seats without legs (but with seatbacks). Those might be interesting option in some conditions (not when you are hiking, of course..)
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby talbot » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:23 pm

Yeah, we've tried one type of seat that didn't work. That's something to keep researching.
My engineering has screwed up the cuddy as a seatback. The bulkhead has a steering compass to starboard side and an electrical panel to port. In any case, I would have to move my ratchet/cams up to the coaming to get the jib sheets out of the way. I have to think about it before doing more major modifications.
But thanks for the ideas.
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby GreenLake » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:38 pm

The big difference between a ballasted (keel) boat and a dinghy is that performance is not tied (or not tied as directly) to where you sit, and even less tied to particular seating postures (as in hiking).

I have a friend who owns a trailerable folding trimaran. I've not been on it, but I've seen it in his driveway, so I can attest that it is, indeed trailerable with a reasonable towing vehicle. They call it the "space ship". A trimaran would give you less wet of a ride than a catamaran and provide a central cockpit that might allow installation of ergonomic seating. At the same time, while unballasted, it's fast without depending on crew weight for balance.

And it's trailerable.

Perhaps something to explore that's not directly on the axis small --- big boat.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby talbot » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:12 pm

Interesting idea. But as we (a) already owe money on a keelboat and (b) have no money, it's unlikely we will buy a new craft any time soon. At least not before one of the boats is sold. That's really the point of the discussion. The boat we actually use now (the 21-footer) costs a lot and can't reach all the shallow-water places we can visit in the DS. The boat we would like to be able to use (the DS) has become physically painful for my wife to operate. If the situation doesn't change, one of them has to go.
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby GreenLake » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:04 am

I mentioned it primarily as an encouragement to think "outside the box".

The way you describe it, the "keelboat" seems to be a mixed bag. Does the ability to sleep onboard open up itineraries that would make up for the loss off access to shallow places? From what I can see on the net, your P21 is small enough to go on a trailer, so you should be able to find sailing venues that work with it.

Don't know what to tell you, except if you end up ditching the DS, you'd still be welcome here.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby jeadstx » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:11 am

It's one reason I like the Mariner, with a 10" minimum draft (board up), I can go in most of the same waters as the DS II, but with a little more comfort for cruising. I also don't need to keep the boat on a slip.

One year on the Tx200 my crew tried something similar to what Greenlake suggest about laying a board across the seats to be able to sit with legs stretched out. My rowing seat got a lot of use that year. If you don't hike out much, you could add a thin board as a backrest to the inside of the rail, just a thought.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby talbot » Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:41 pm

I think John's backrest idea is the first (simplest, cheapest) approach. We'll see if someone makes a better backpacking camp chair than the one my wife has tried.

Yes, Precision has about the lightest (1875lbs), shallowest (21") cruiser of its size with room and facilities for comfortable overnighting. We use it like our vacation home, spending weekends anchored out it summer. And it's fun to sail--it has a CB in the keel that lets it point to 45 degrees, and with the board up, easily reaches well past its theoretical hull speed.

But the problem has nothing to do with the P21. The problem is that we still want to sail the DS if we can find a way to make it work for both of us. I'll see what I can find out before April Fool's day, our appropriately named launch date.
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby GreenLake » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:07 pm

Talbot, for some additional recommendations see http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/89615-cockpit-comfort-folding-seats-cushions-etc.html (but that discussion is four years old).

If there's any chance that your wife's condition is amenable to improvement, I'd encourage her to go for that.

I thought I had developed a crippling back problem shortly after I got my DS and despaired enough about ever being able to raise the keel-stepped mast even with crew so that I constructed an A-frame contraption for mast stepping. In my case a combination of Yoga, massage and Chiropractor's intervention brought me back to where the condition is manageable to the point that I can step the mast by myself unaided as long as I keep my strength up and avoid certain postures/motions. Now I'm super careful at each season start until I'm fully back in shape. (The contraption sits in my basement, insurance for days where I may no longer have that strength).

Everybody is different, but I've seen first hand in this, and some related issues how properly strengthened muscles can support joints and spine (not to forget the effect of learning how to better move/position oneself).

More generally, those of us past a certain age, will find that it takes more dedicated and continuous effort to maintain strength and flexibility. A good friend and fellow sailor expressed it this way: we can still train to get stronger, but the minute we stop, it all goes away much faster than when we were younger, so now we need to be better (= way more diligent) about keeping up.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby TIM WEBB » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:21 pm

I've tried a number of different "stadium-type" seats for being able to sit facing forward, and pretty much only used them on long downwind stints, such as Santa Rosa sound on the FL 120. The main issue I've had with them is the hindrance of tiller motion when sitting as far aft as one should sit on that point of sail, but the back support is the main saving grace. I found a collapsible one from Wally World that seems to work best, as long as you keep your weight as close to the boat's seatback as possible, one leg on the seat and one on the cockpit sole:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Stadium-Armc ... y/42247782
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby jeadstx » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:51 am

Last year on the Tx200 we had some long runs and wanted some back support. At times we would use a throwable cushion. That worked well for us. With cockpit seat cushions, we only needed a back support at times and the cushion was easily movable when needed.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby talbot » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:27 pm

Thanks for the advice. I will check out the different seats. Good point about considering the tiller action. I was thinking about the crew position, but in fact my wife usually drives -- or would if she could do it without pain.

This is a long-term condition, seriously aggravated by an automobile accident last spring. She has been undergoing massage and physical therapy for months. The only thing she hasn't tried is opiod addiction. Fortunately, as I mentioned earlier, a larger sailboat works. Think of how much better society would be if we just prescribed yachts for back pain instead of oxycodone.
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Re: Day Sailers and old sailors

Postby GreenLake » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:31 pm

Now there's a prescription!
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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