Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

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Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby DigitalMechanic » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:37 am

Hello everyone! I am new to the forum. You all have done a fantastic job of making this place full of very insightful information.

I have recently acquired a new to me 1976 Daysailer II that I have been rehabbing. I have a quick question about the mainsheet. Currently I have a 3:1 purchase system, whereas there is a cam cleat fiddle block combo on the centerboard and single block mid-boom (on my DS II so there is no traveler, mainsheet simply goes from centerboard to mid-boom and done). The annoying thing is that you have pull down on the sheet to release it. Unfortunately the way it is currently setup you have to come down into the boat and get your hand under the fiddle block cam cleat by the centerboard to release it every time you want to adjust the sheet (you cannot really hold it in your hand, by nature it is always cleating itself). This seems inefficient to me (and annoying) because you have to constantly bend down into the center of the boat make any adjustments. If you sheet in, you are forced to cleat because of the setup. I think it would be better if the sheet was released by pulling up, and cleated by pulling down. So, my question is does anyone have any suggestions or can share any experiences of what has worked for them?

What I have in my head right now looks like a swivel base cam cleat that releases the sheet when pulled up (cleats when pulled down), with a manual on/off ratcheting swivel fiddle block on a spring (so it can rotate freely) on the centerboard trunk. Then either a single auto ratcheting block on the boom (3:1 purchase) or another manual on/off ratcheting fiddle block (4:1 purchase) on the boom (I cannot find an auto ratcheting fiddle block for whatever reason). So I guess there are 2 questions, setup and purchase power.

Blocks are expensive, so I just though I would run this by the vast amount of experienced daysailer owners first, to see what everyone thought before I started dumping $$ on trial and error.

Why I am at it, I will also throw in a 3rd question. The boat has the original 3:1 Boom Vang. It it tough to work with and cleats off on itself. I know this needs to come back and cleat off in a more accessible location, but the question is what purchase power is everyone using on the DS II boom vang? From reading up, I know a lot of you are using 15:1 and 20:1 on the DS I. That may be overkill on the DS II?

Thanks in advance to everyone that might provide and insight!
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby DigitalMechanic » Sat Nov 07, 2015 7:45 am

Here is a picture of my first mate sheeting the line, if that helps give an idea of the current mainsheet setup.
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby GreenLake » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:17 am

I'm totally with you on the deficiencies of your setup.

My setup has a cleat that's on it's own swivel arm and it releases by an upward pull. Because I also have a ratchet block at the boom, I cleat the main less often.

I'm using a Ronstan 55 Orbit ratchet block, and, with only 90 degrees turn, am satisfied with it's holding power, as well with it's automatic setting (engages if there's enough pull on the line). If you were to replace your single block with a ratchet you'd be in business.

The manufacturers differ a bit in how the controls work on ratchet blocks. The Ronstan is too fiddly to operate while busy sailing, but happily, their automatic mode has proven itself to be a "set and forget" kind of deal for me. The holding power of the Ronstan is about double that of comparable blocks from other manufacturers (according to test result from a practical sailing mag).

Your setup with center boom sheeting is different from mine. With a 180 degree pull, you would engage the ratchet a bit sooner, and the holding power would be stronger, which is great when you want it, but also means it's stronger when you don't want it. I'm mentioning this, as it may make the feel a bit different on your boat compared to mine.

If you can re-use the existing fiddle (that is, if it allows the cleat to be disconnected) you would only need the one ratchet block and one swivel-base with cleat facing up, but just about any modern fiddle block looks like it would be an improvement to the original as shown on your photo.

I ended up putting the Ronstans on the jib sheet cars as well, something you could consider down the road. In that setting, the pull is at 90 degrees on your boat as well as mine, so they should feel the same. If you were to start with a Ronstan for the boom and find its holding power too strong or the autosetting too eager for 180 degree turns, then you could always move it to the jib fairlead. My main motivation was to accommodate younger crew or less experienced crew that I couldn't trust with releasing a jib sheet from a cleat promptly enough for the conditions. As a side effect, I can hold both lines while single handing, which is useful in some situations.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby DigitalMechanic » Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:21 am

Yep. I think that I inherited most of the original equipment on this 40 year old boat, down to the original Neil Pryde sails (believe it or not, lol). I have replaced so much. Standing rigging, running rigging, every fastener on the mast and boom, new sails, and shaved a significant layer of the original crusty red oxidized gelcoat off the boat to make it shine again, lol. Now that I am this far in and the boat is safe and sea worthy, I am thinking about efficiency to make the boat more fun to sail. Thus, blocks are on my mind :D.

Do you have a link to the swivel arm you have used? I could only really find one solution that would allow me the upwards lift to un-cleat the mainsheet.

I was wondering about the ratchets. It would be nice to have the assist in heavier air out here on the Saint Johns river in Jax, FL. However, my healthy appetite of paranoia does not want to end up in a situation where I cannot easy the sheet quick enough in a bad situation because of the force. That is why I was thinking auto ratchet on the boom and manual on/off ratchet down on the centerboard (so it would be easy to turn off if it does not work out). I have not been able to track down an auto ratcheting fiddle block.

I thought about this for the centerboard trunk...
http://www.harken.com/productdetail.aspx?id=5749
http://www.harken.com/productdetail.aspx?id=4721&taxid=420
With a spring in between the base and the fiddle block to keep it standing up.

And this for the Boom...
http://www.harken.com/productdetail.aspx?id=4739&taxid=421
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby GreenLake » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:08 am

My swivel arm is the original for a DSI and despite its over 50 years is still functional.

Make sure you replace the sails (even if that is pricey). That's going to make one of the bigger differences.

I've never had issues with ratchets releasing. As I wrote, I use mine in the "auto" configuration, where the ratchet will disengage once the pull on the line falls below a magical value. So, when I let go of the sheet, not only can it start to slide against a stationary sheave, but the ratchet will disengage and the sheave will spin freely. I have ratchets on another boat where you have to either set them on or off manually, and I find that a pain.

As I said, mine are "set and forget" the way I have them set up.

The swivel base etc. look fine, but I've given my opinion on the ratchet blocks.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby DigitalMechanic » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:53 am

I just looked at the boat and I think I see what you are saying now. On the fiddle block on the centerboard trunk... If I pop the eye strap off the cam cleat and turn it over, then I will be able to pull down to cleat the main off. That might work out if the angle is not too bad. Not sure why I did not see that before. You may have saved me some money. Thanks! Then I would only be looking at a single auto ratcheting block to purchase for the boom to start off with. If it does not do what I want, then I can circle back to the centerboard. Again, thanks Greenlake!

I have also considered the cam cleats on jib cars. The problem is the opposite, as cleating them off is more difficult due to the angle. I plan on putting blocks on the jib cars and bringing them back to the centerboard to cleat off. That would eliminate the angle issue and give quicker and easier access to the jib sheet(s). I also need to get the boom vang sheet to the center of the boat as well. Project, Project, Project... You know how it goes :D
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby GreenLake » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:47 pm

Cleating jib sheets on the CB trunk works for me, but without "captive" cleats.

I tie my jib sheets together (esp. when single handing) so I can grab them anywhere between the blocks, trim as needed, and then cleat, by dropping the sheet from above. No need to sit on the "proper" side of the CB, or to start pulling only on the "proper" side of the cleat. Having a connected sheet means I'll never have to fish for the "proper" sheet, any part I can reach will do.
18181034
PS: while we are at it, this is my original equipment main sheet swivel, still functional. (I don't have center boom sheeting, so no fiddle)
1832
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby DigitalMechanic » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:02 pm

I like that setup on the jib. I think I might copy it :D . My centerboard trunk has 2 little spaces about 3"-4" that have a very slight tilt to them. Looks like there really wants to be a cam cleat there just for this purpose (though I doubt that was what was originally thought that went into it).

I took apart the swivel fiddle block on my centerboard trunk today. It looks like I can flip over the cam cleat, but will need to add 2 nuts to the top of it to keep the top of it where the teeth part sticks up ever so slightly from get stuck (breathing room for a lack of better words).

Thanks for taking the pictures, that really helps visualize what you were explaining to me. Looks like I have to make a trip to make to grab some hardware. I will take a few pictures and report back once I get it installed. I have a feeling flipping the cam cleat will work out just fine.

Do you happen to remember the model number on those harken jib cars?
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby DigitalMechanic » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:16 pm

Sorry, I forgot to ask... What size blocks on the jib car? 40mm?
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby klb67 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:31 pm

I too have a 76 DS II. Check out my images - I have one of my mainsheet and one of my jib blocks. I really like the ronstan auto ratchet blocks for the jib cars. My photo is a little dark to see the cam cleat on the main, but it is a harken 57 mm I think #2624. You can flip the cam either way. As I'm still learning, my wide doesn't like the boat to heel and winds on our lake can be shifty, I have mine set up so any pull at all will uncleat, and you have to pull down to re cleat.
1976 DSII - #8039
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby DigitalMechanic » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:33 pm

It looks like in the picture that you have to pull up to cleat the sheet off. I looked at that swivel base previously, but was reluctant to consider it because it is all plastic. Also, in my head I could not visualize how you could reverse the cleat to flip it up. But, I believe you if you said it can be done. I just could not visualize it. If I had it in my hand it would be another story. I think they make another one of those that has a metal plate (instead of plastic at the bottom), and would have considered it, but again could not wrap my head around flipping the cam cleat. None the less, I think what I currently have is similar (just really old). If I were to step it up a notch, I think I would use the extended swivel base that I originally mentioned to move the cleat outward toward the side of the boat a couple of inches (for hiking). Ergonomically speaking. However, there is a price to do so. I will probably just flip the cam cleat on the current retro swivel fiddle block and replace the block on the boom with the auto-ratcheting 57mm block. I am interested to know what what size blocks are being used in the jib cars. My intuition tells me 40mm. I could not find an auto ratcheting block from Harken in that size. If you have a model number for the Ronstan auto-racthet you use for the jib, please share.

Thanks again for everyones help!
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby klb67 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:35 pm

I'm pretty sure my jib blocks are 40 mm
1976 DSII - #8039
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby DigitalMechanic » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:45 pm

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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby DigitalMechanic » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:53 pm

Actually it looks like your blocks might be the 55mm?

http://www.ronstan.us/marine5/product.asp?ProdNo=RF56100

The 40mm does not come in a auto/on/off configuration in a single block... that I can find. Only auto or manual (2 separate blocks). The 55 appears to do all.

The price difference between the 40mm and 55mm does not seem that much, considering that the 55mm does 3 different configurations vs only one. If this is correct, I think this may be the one to get?
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Re: Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

Postby DigitalMechanic » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:39 am

Totally off subject.. but Kib67 I noticed in one of your pictures that your boom and sail were laying in the bottom of the cockpit of the boat. I do not know if you already considered this, but you can prevent that by adding a topping lift. I will try and grab a pic for you when the sun is shining again around these parts. But basically what I have is a small block (for 1/4" line) about 2/3 of the way up from the shroud tangs to the top of the mast. I have a cleat on the side of the bottom of the mast to tie off to. I run a line from the cleat on the side of the mast up through that block and then to the aft end of the boom where there should be an extra hole in the casting on the end of the boom to clip a shackle (or in my case I just used a spring clip). This will hold the boom up so you can lash the sails to it and keep it off the cockpit floor when the mainsail is down. Tighten the main sheet and it will keep the boom from moving side to side. I also use this line when stepping the mast to pull it forward enough to pin off the forestay by connecting it to the winch on the trailer and cranking it in. Makes stepping the mast by myself a breeze on top of keeping the boom up when the sails are down. I have to go under 2 bridges (downtown Jacksonville, FL) after I launch to get out into the civil part of the river, so this is super convenient when motoring out and then raising sails on the water. You may not have that problem, but still super helpful if you want to leave the boat docked (or have the mainsail down at any time). The costs was a small horn cleat, small block, spring clip, and some cheap triple strand rope. Anyways, not sure if you had though about this, but I saw the picture and I though I would mention it in case it might be helpful to you.
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