Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

[GreenLake]

If you look back at my photos you will find that the cleats are not flat, but angled a bit to be "in line" with the direction of pull.

[DigitalMechanic]

I setup the boat up to play with it a little more and seems to be angled correctly to me. If you look at the place where the top of the cleat is connected, there is an upward angle that the block has to it where you mount the cleat. This points 45 ish degrees toward the outside rail(s) of the boat. When I slide the boom out to the side of the boat it actually points it a little higher. If anything I think it may be angled a little to high.

None the less, unfortunately the only thing that can be adjusted by the wedge kit is the angle of the fairlead, which I think I got lined up pretty good with the exiting part of the fiddle block and cleat.

Maybe a not so close up picture will help visualize...

[TIM WEBB]

Nice clean DS2!

That picture illustrates perfectly why I happen to prefer the "down to release" mainsheet cleat. I've tried 'em both, and definitely like down better, because as you see, in all but the most close-hauled situations (and even then it's an easy "foot-assisted release"), with a down-facing cleat, a tug from the rail results in a release, not a "self-set". I've gotten a lot of grief on here for my stance on this issue, but as I say, having tried both, in some pretty gnarly situations (think 4-6 ft chop and blowing like snot in the middle of Pensacola Bay), I'm here to tell you that down is better and safer. Sorry if this "undoes" all your efforts, but there is a reason why the Garhauer standup swivel block w/ cleat sold by Rudy at D&R has a down-facing cleat.

Caveat: I've never been one to prefer sailing with sheets un-cleated ... don't wanna work that hard, especially on a 30-40 mi/day beat to wx that is typical of one particular event I do. Doesn't mean I don't have sheets in hand at all times and ready to dump, because I do. Guess it's a habit I picked up on bigger boats, where one is constantly trimming, but with sheets around winches, and not in hand directly to/from sail/spar. For me, this carries over to the DS, where I am constantly un-cleating/trimming/re-cleating both main and jib sheets accordingly. I suppose if I had the ratchet blocks I might change my tune, but so far I have not found TRW's existing setup annoying enough to justify the expense. Your mileage may vary ... ;-P

[jeadstx]

I may try this conversion as it is not costly, and if I don't like it, I can change the cam cleat back. Like Tim, I do an event where I sail 30 to 50 miles in a day and the sheet is left cleated for long periods of time. I'm also in the habit of keeping the sheet in hand and ready if I have to release.

John

[DigitalMechanic]

I can see what you are talking about. From sailing my boat, I find if I am trying to hike out, I constantly come back into the boat to trim because I always have to un-cleat any time I want to easy the sheet, period. So, in my head I wanted to be able to cleat and un-cleat without having to move, whether sheeting in or easing. I am not sure that this is a final solution to that problem until I can get a sea trial in. My only concern is that the further the boom is out from centerline of the boat, the more the fiddle block and cleat are going to point up. I believe this is potentially only a problem for un-cleating at that point. However, with the boom that far out (nearly touching the shrouds is pretty extreme), the sheet should be on it's way back in at that point. Also, with the sheet in hand, and boom lashed to the shroud, a slight pull forward brings that block back towards level position, and seems easy to un-cleat again at that point with a little tug upwards.

In this test on the trailer, I have no force pushing out on the boom at this point (like wind would), the boom is simply tied to the shroud for this test. I am not sure what the experience on the water will be when we start playing tug of war I am taking it out Sunday, and will give it a sea trial.

I believe the following is the "professional" solution, but comes at a price I am trying to defer at least for the time being...
http://www.dieballsailing.com/harken-144-swivel-cam-base-150-cam-matic/
http://www.dieballsailing.com/harken-2622-57mm-fiddle-block-swivel-becket/

This solution would allow the cleat to stay on a static "plane" as the boom moves, and person holding the sheet moves.

[DigitalMechanic]

Tim,

I was just looking at pictures of the work you did on your boat. I like that name "Red Witch". What is that tabernacle cover made from? Also, I see you are a neighbor, living about an hour and half south of me down in Deland

That is where I bought my boat from (Actually a guy in Casselberry).

Cheers

[TIM WEBB]

I can see what you are talking about. From sailing my boat, I find if I am trying to hike out, I constantly come back into the boat to trim because I always have to un-cleat any time I want to easy the sheet, period. So, in my head I wanted to be able to cleat and un-cleat without having to move, whether sheeting in or easing. I am not sure that this is a final solution to that problem until I can get a sea trial in. My only concern is that the further the boom is out from centerline of the boat, the more the fiddle block and cleat are going to point up. I believe this is potentially only a problem for un-cleating at that point. However, with the boom that far out (nearly touching the shrouds is pretty extreme), the sheet should be on it's way back in at that point. Also, with the sheet in hand, and boom lashed to the shroud, a slight pull forward brings that block back towards level position, and seems easy to un-cleat again at that point with a little tug upwards.

In this test on the trailer, I have no force pushing out on the boom at this point (like wind would), the boom is simply tied to the shroud for this test. I am not sure what the experience on the water will be when we start playing tug of war I am taking it out Sunday, and will give it a sea trial.

I believe the following is the "professional" solution, but comes at a price I am trying to defer at least for the time being...
http://www.dieballsailing.com/harken-144-swivel-cam-base-150-cam-matic/
http://www.dieballsailing.com/harken-2622-57mm-fiddle-block-swivel-becket/

This solution would allow the cleat to stay on a static "plane" as the boom moves, and person holding the sheet moves.

I agree that the swivel cam base is probably the best solution, and no doubt in use by more than a few DS skippers. Looks like a sheet-snagger to me tho ...

Correct: the further out the boom is, the higher the up-facing cleat points, and therefore a down-to-release makes more sense, since with mid-boom sheeting, the boom is never really on centerline, unless you have a mid-boom traveler, in which case all bets are off!

Bottom line is that all boats are setup differently, all skippers have different preferences, and the perfect setup for you and your boat is the one that works best for you given the type of sailing that you do. jeadstx has far more experience sailing/cruising his DS than I do mine, and if he says he is considering the change, well then: I might be persuaded to reconsider as well ... ;-P

[TIM WEBB]

Tim,

I was just looking at pictures of the work you did on your boat. I like that name "Red Witch". What is that tabernacle cover made from? Also, I see you are a neighbor, living about an hour and half south of me down in Deland

That is where I bought my boat from (Actually a guy in Casselberry).

Cheers

Thanks!

I think I've told the story on here before, but the short version goes something like this: a co-worker of mine was living in Palatka at the time (2005), and storing a DS2 in her backyard for a guy who had gotten divorced, moved to an apartment, and had nowhere to put the boat. She and her hubby (non-sailors) had just bought a new powerboat, and no longer had room to store TRW (still un-named at this point mind you). I had begged both them and her owner for months to just let me bring TRW down to Deland and give her some TLC, but one day I walked into the shop and she said, and I quote: "Come get that red <substitute word that rhymes with witch here> outta my backyard!", and well, as they say, the rest is history ... ;-P

The mast hinge cover was nothing more than a Country Crock tub cut to go around the mast/hinge and spray painted white. It didn't really work as intended, and is no longer there. I just manage jib sheets better as to not foul them on the hinge.

Yup, down here in DeeLightFul DeeLand, just up I-4 from C'berry. Not too far from you. How is the sailing up there on the "fat" part of the St. John's? There's an event called the Mug Race they do every year from Palatka to Jax that I've always wanted to give a try, but just seems that something else is always going on.

If you are interested in doing any coastal cruising, check out the WCTSS:

http://members.ij.net/wctss/wctss/

We're doing a group sail this weekend down around Malabar/Sebastian. The group is based out of the Tampa area, but does outings all over the state. Not racers, just gunkholers ... ;-P

[GreenLake]

I setup the boat up to play with it a little more...

I thought I was talking about the angled spots on the CB trunk for the jib cleats. If you put a wedge there, you can reduce the angle, but, in my experience, you don't want to "aim" too far off the angle that the fully loaded jib sheet will make when cleated.

Mine used to be level, and I found that the jib sheet would pop out of the cleats too easily. Then I added wedges to make them angle up a bit (as you can see in one of my photos) and that worked better (it's a little harder to cleat in, I use a foot at times to hold down the sheet, but the cleats hold the sheets more reliably that way). Your pre-molded angles do look like they are a bit steep.

[GreenLake]

... My only concern is that the further the boom is out from centerline of the boat, the more the fiddle block and cleat are going to point up. I believe this is potentially only a problem for un-cleating at that point. However, with the boom that far out (nearly touching the shrouds is pretty extreme), the sheet should be on it's way back in at that point. Also, with the sheet in hand, and boom lashed to the shroud, a slight pull forward brings that block back towards level position, and seems easy to un-cleat again at that point with a little tug upwards. ...

I believe the following is the "professional" solution, but comes at a price I am trying to defer at least for the time being...
http://www.dieballsailing.com/harken-144-swivel-cam-base-150-cam-matic/
http://www.dieballsailing.com/harken-2622-57mm-fiddle-block-swivel-becket/

This solution would allow the cleat to stay on a static "plane" as the boom moves, and person holding the sheet moves.

I agree that the swivel cam base is probably the best solution, and no doubt in use by more than a few DS skippers. Looks like a sheet-snagger to me tho ...

Correct: the further out the boom is, the higher the up-facing cleat points, and therefore a down-to-release makes more sense, since with mid-boom sheeting, the boom is never really on centerline, unless you have a mid-boom traveler, in which case all bets are off!...

The swivel base is the modern equivalent of what my DS came with from the factory. I've experienced no "sheet snagging" with it, or with and older Harken setup in another boat -- as long as the swivel is able to do 360 degrees, that is. I found that when there are stops that limit the swivel, you invariably end up with the sheet in a location where you can't trim in until you've moved it around to the "good" sector again. In my view that defeats the purpose of the swivel...

My experience with the bottom facing cleat (on another sailor's boat) was that it was most painful to release the mainsheet quickly when it was needed most, that is close-hauled and playing the gusts. If you are sailing on a broad reach, chances are you are not hiking out; in that case, you can pull forward (where the angle matters less). I have, however, not yet sailed on a setup like the one @DigitalMechanic designed, so I don't know.

What I disliked most about my experience with the downfacing cleats was how the mainsheet would cleat itself when I was just holding it. I had to constantly uncleat it, just to be sure that it would actually be free to move when I let go.

[DigitalMechanic]

Yup, down here in DeeLightFul DeeLand, just up I-4 from C'berry. Not too far from you. How is the sailing up there on the "fat" part of the St. John's? There's an event called the Mug Race they do every year from Palatka to Jax that I've always wanted to give a try, but just seems that something else is always going on.

Tim, to be honest I have not taken it to far from the launch ramp as of yet. This boat has been a roller coaster of effort and emotions thus far, lol. It was in pretty bad shape when I got it, and I have replaced a lot on it. It barely even looks like the same boat from when I bought it anymore. Every time I change something I try and take it out for an hour or so and test, vs making a bunch of changes at once. And staying close to ramp makes it easier if/when a failure has occurred (and I have a had a few). I believe I have had as many launch and immediate retrievals... as I have had actually gotten to sail the boat (but those odds are about to change). This is the first boat I have owned, and I have tried and live by the motto "You just don't know what you just don't know... until you know it". So, I am learning about boat ownership, and in the process I have also learned that the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" does not apply to boats, lol.

However, I am getting to the point where I believe I am past all the safety issues and plan on taking it out on the "fat part" of the river this weekend. I have a friend who is a pretty seasoned sailor that is going to meet with me to go through all the stuff I have done to the boat prior to taking it out. We also plan on bringing parts and tools (he has a collection of spare parts from his many years of sailing). So, if there is anything that still looks suspect to him we should be able to correct and then go out on the water. And then come back with a whole new set of ideas, lol.

I would like to participate in some of the races eventually, but I do not think it will happen this season. However, if I do the mug race next year, I will give you a heads up in case you plan on coming up. Thanks for the sailing invite!

[DigitalMechanic]

I thought I was talking about the angled spots on the CB trunk for the jib cleats. If you put a wedge there, you can reduce the angle, but, in my experience, you don't want to "aim" too far off the angle that the fully loaded jib sheet will make when cleated.

Greenlake, sorry. I though we were still talking about mid-boom sheeting. I was not paying attention to what I was reading Your setup looks good. I like the idea. I will have to play with the shims and see what works best when I get that far.

Looking a little deeper at the jib cars, I think they need to be re-inforced first. I have not had a problem yet... but when I pull them toward the center of the boat (which is what this change will do now vs only pulling toward the front of the boat), there is some shady flexing movement going on. I grabbed some marine plywood to make a backer board for the inside of the coaming but have not had time to install it. Conveniently (for once) the inspection ports are already in place inside the cuddy for this. Which also may be a good indication that the jib cars have come off before, along with the fact that there is another set of holes for previous screws behind the jib track that are blown out, lol. None the less, I am going to thicken it up and make it secure (and actually plug the old holes) Then I will move forward with the jib sheeting mods.

[jeadstx]

DigitalMechanic,

I see from your picture that you have the original jib track cars. I replaced mine with a block and added cam cleats on the centerboard trunk on the angled areas. I know there are some sailors that the original jib track cars work well for, but I had problems with the cam cleats being on the rail.

John

[DigitalMechanic]

My plan is to put a 40mm swivel block on a spring on the jib car slider track, and have it come to a cam cleat on the angled part of the centerboard trunk. I have tested it with a bigger block to see if the clevis pin would allow me to get a working spring in there, and looks like it will fly. The main point for the spring is literally the convenience of keeping from having to hear the block repeatedly smack against the coaming on the windward side of the boat. For $0.79, it seems like a good investment. However, I had to secure and re-inforce the jib cars back to the very thin fiberglass on the coaming wall first (which had blown out holes for half of the screws that held it). It looks like the original solution by O'day was to put a piece of wood of some sort behind it wrapped in a fiberglass sheath/holder. That wood is "no bueno" at this stage in the game (the fiberglass holder/sheath is in pretty bad shape too). I put a piece of Marine Plywood behind there to solve that problem, and everything now feels secure and tight/strong. I will post a picture shortly...

[DigitalMechanic]

So, not to sound like a sissy, but this was one of the more disgusting things I have touched in my life. 40 year old boat guts... lol. This made the jib tracks have a nice secure/strong attachment to the re-inforced coaming wall of the boat. I was not able to get the old wood out of the fiberglass holder/sheath. But, the fiberglass holder/sheath looked pretty bad as well. I decided to just sandwich the whole thing with the Marine Plywood from the outside...

Now I feel like the jib cars are strong enough to take the inboard pull required to cleat the jib sheet off at the centerboard (without popping out of the coaming). I just have to implement it