Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby K.C. Walker » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:00 pm

John, I'm sure you're right, the DS 1 does have a lot more capacity for water in the cockpit! My old boat had a self bailing cockpit and was pretty much self righting. Now that I think back, I filled the cockpit on that boat a number of times, waited for it to drain, and just sailed away. It wasn't near as pretty or fast, though.

I wonder if the flotation in the floor of the DS2 would change the center flotation with the boat on its side enough to make the point of no return different from the DS1?
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby Breakin Wind » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:17 pm

I've asked the question about flotation positioning before as well. I've often thought (having no experience for even technical basis for opinion) that it would make more sense to put the floatation high and the weight low so the boat is more oriented to self righting. I think I'm probably almost there now, as I installed my noodles behind the seat backs in my DS2 tied high as I can get them, have a pair of heavy batteries built into the cuddy floor just inside the door, and in spite of my best efforts to the contrary have found my bilge is still fairly vented to the outside.
I installed a 1500 gph bilge pump last winter before I sealed the battery boxes to the cuddy floor, that seems to find water to pump out after heavy rains so I assume I have some leaks remaining somewhere.

Never-the-less, it seems reasonable to me, (again all disclaimers apply) that if the boat is tipped on it's side with water rushing in, the last place I'd want my flotation is on the keel because that's the part that's going to try to float most? I would think you'd want the keel wanting to sink, and the deck edges wanting to float. No? Using that logic, it would make sense that the bilge would be open to take the water, and the clearly wasn't the design intent.

Thanks - Scott
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby curifin » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:22 pm

Welcome :-) I am beginning to realize its not all that an exclusive club......

I just picked up my baby bob along with the sails I had two reefs added to (for use when my small kids and/or wife is in the boat).

Niles.
1970 DS1 "Denial"
1993 Beneteau First 210 "Dory"
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby TIM WEBB » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:36 am

KC, what was your point of sail when this went down? I'm guessing beam or broad reach, or even (heaven forbid!) running, since you were flying the BAHS (Big A$$ Head Sail)?

Now, what were we talking about not too long ago as to what point of sail was most likely to result in a capsize? Hmm?

Not sure this "qualifies" as a capsize tho. Knockdown - definitely. To me, capsize means the boat goes over and people end up in the water, trying to get the boat back on her keel ... ?

Just kiddin' ya! Glad it all turned out OK. Those gals got more sailing instruction in those few harrowing moments than most get in a lifetime ... ;-P
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby K.C. Walker » Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:09 am

Tim,

I had to look on Wikipedia to decide whether or not it qualified as a capsize because I wasn't really sure. The boat was only briefly on its side. On the replay in my mind I don't have all the details, like I know that the sails were in the water and the mast was at least partially in the water but I don't know if the mast tip hit. I also did not look backwards to see if the centerboard was out of the water. One part of the replay that I do recall is looking down from very high up watching the water rushing in and thinking, oh, you are actually going to capsize this time, watch to see how the boat sits in the water on its side. And I briefly noted that it seemed to sit at about the midline of the boat.

I have no doubt that had we not been in the hiking straps and laying backwards on the top side that we would have been in the water. Amongst all the other errors that I made, at least that one went my way.

We were actually on a somewhat close reach. The breeze had just been 5-6 kn, so perfect for the BAHS. I think that if any of us had released pressure we would have been fine. I bought bigger 52 mm auto ratchet blocks for the BAHS this year and they're holding too well with the 180° wrap. The 40 mm that I had last year, were about right but one went bad and I figured bigger was better... I'm going to try moving them forward to the coaming where they only get a 90° wrap and see if that does the trick.
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby jeadstx » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:54 am

KC, As to your question concerning the amount of water in the boat and being able to still right it I think I can answer that in part even tho the DS1 will get flooded faster than a DS2. When I capsized during the 2012 Tx200, the boat went over and apparently during the capsize the mast head hit bottom (from sand later found on mast head) and then came back to the surface due to flotation in the mast head. When I got out from under the sail I called out to my crew to help me right the boat. When I got around to the centerboard, the board was a good two feet above the water. When my crew didn't show up after a minute or so I swam back to the cockpit side only to see my crew swimming for shore. When I got back to the CB side, the boat had started taking on water and the CB was only about a 1-1/2 feet above the water. I tried to right the boat, but couldn't by myself. The boat continued to take on water into the bilge. and as a note to Breakin Wind, I had flotation in the sides as well as the bilge. I started to wait for it to settle a little more to get better leverage with the deck and the CB and maybe right the boat. I knew the boat wouldn't sink. Besides the flotation in the sides (10 "pool noodles" on each side) above the seats and I had 40 "pool noodles" in the bilge. When one of the rescure boats came up, someone jumped in to assist and he was able to right the boat. At the point the boat was righted, it had about as much water in it as a DS1 sitting on it's side. The amout of water in the DS2 may have been a little less, but the boat was heavily loaded for five days of sailing so the weight to right was probably more than a DS1 under normal load.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 pm

K.C. Walker wrote:Tim,

I had to look on Wikipedia to decide whether or not it qualified as a capsize because I wasn't really sure. The boat was only briefly on its side. On the replay in my mind I don't have all the details, like I know that the sails were in the water and the mast was at least partially in the water but I don't know if the mast tip hit. I also did not look backwards to see if the centerboard was out of the water. One part of the replay that I do recall is looking down from very high up watching the water rushing in and thinking, oh, you are actually going to capsize this time, watch to see how the boat sits in the water on its side. And I briefly noted that it seemed to sit at about the midline of the boat.

I have no doubt that had we not been in the hiking straps and laying backwards on the top side that we would have been in the water. Amongst all the other errors that I made, at least that one went my way.

We were actually on a somewhat close reach. The breeze had just been 5-6 kn, so perfect for the BAHS. I think that if any of us had released pressure we would have been fine. I bought bigger 52 mm auto ratchet blocks for the BAHS this year and they're holding too well with the 180° wrap. The 40 mm that I had last year, were about right but one went bad and I figured bigger was better... I'm going to try moving them forward to the coaming where they only get a 90° wrap and see if that does the trick.

OK, fair enough. To me, capsize means you don't get to keep on sailing "post-event-horizon" (as John can attest). Sounds like you had a pretty good knockdown, were hiked out enough to keep that from "taking it to the next level", bailed-then-sailed, and had a few yuks about it back at the dock.

One question KC: does your boat have the auto-bailer, and if so, do you think it would have done any good in allowing you to sail away from the "scene of the crime" w/o having to bail so much? Just curious ... ?
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby K.C. Walker » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Tim,

Capsizing and being able to sail away has a lot to do with the boat, the conditions, and how the crew handles the situation. If as you say earlier, your definition of a capsize is that people go in the water and then have to recover, I've done that hundreds of times, including landing on my back in the middle of the sail and turning turtle plenty of times. In those situations I sailed away from most of those, but that had to do with the boat being a windsurfer. I've capsized my sunfish and been able to right it and sail away but that boat has a tendency to turn turtle and then be more difficult.

The amount and location of floatation also has a bearing on how easy it is to recover from a capsize. Though it is counterintuitive, the more floatation you have and the further off the centerline it is, the harder it is to right the boat. The Albacore class boats, also designed by Uffa Fox, are considered pretty easy to self rescue, their floatation is centrally located and when capsized they lay at the midline, i.e. the center board does not come above the water. The JY 15 has a lot of seat floatation and the center board is a good bit above water when the boat is on its side. It is considered non-self rescuing and has a tendency to turn turtle. This is why I was interested to note where my boat floated while on it's side. I think the DaySailer is considered only marginally self rescuing and I don't know whether there is a difference between the DS 1 and the DS 2.

Obviously, things would have been different had I been single handing and the boat on it's side, as I would not have had as much ballast. I do wish I had looked back to see where the center board was with the mast, pretty much horizontal. With the DS 1 the boat fills pretty much instantly with all the water it's going to take on so there's no waiting around for the boat to settle lower as other compartments fill.


Once righted and the boat awash we really only had a couple of inches of freeboard. We definitely could not have sailed as it was extremely unstable. The first order of business was to get everybody to the middle of the boat for balance and get the sails down. We definitely had chop coming over the windward rail and stuff floating out of the boat over the leeward rail. I lost yet another favorite hat! Even though we noticed the hat when it was only, maybe 2 feet past the rail, there was no way I was going to try to reach out for it, because the boat would definitely have gone over again. I don't have suction balers but I think they would've taken care of the last 8 inches of water which would've been nice. I've dipped the rail a couple of other times before getting ratchets blocks and taking on 6 to 8 inches of water in the cockpit, in those situations it would have been nice to have bailers as I was still able to sail.

After I got back to the dock I did check the floatation tanks and they were all pretty much dry, so we had full floatation plus some additional under the rails. I think if it had been any choppier it's likely we would not have been able to stay ahead of the incoming water and would not have been able to sail home.
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby GreenLake » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:17 pm

Moving this to Seamanship and boat handling - I believe that category didn't exist when the thread was started.

I've been following along, very interesting thread.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby TIM WEBB » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:14 pm

K.C. Walker wrote:Tim,

Capsizing and being able to sail away has a lot to do with the boat, the conditions, and how the crew handles the situation. If as you say earlier, your definition of a capsize is that people go in the water and then have to recover, I've done that hundreds of times, including landing on my back in the middle of the sail and turning turtle plenty of times. In those situations I sailed away from most of those, but that had to do with the boat being a windsurfer. I've capsized my sunfish and been able to right it and sail away but that boat has a tendency to turn turtle and then be more difficult.

The amount and location of floatation also has a bearing on how easy it is to recover from a capsize. Though it is counterintuitive, the more floatation you have and the further off the centerline it is, the harder it is to right the boat. The Albacore class boats, also designed by Uffa Fox, are considered pretty easy to self rescue, their floatation is centrally located and when capsized they lay at the midline, i.e. the center board does not come above the water. The JY 15 has a lot of seat floatation and the center board is a good bit above water when the boat is on its side. It is considered non-self rescuing and has a tendency to turn turtle. This is why I was interested to note where my boat floated while on it's side. I think the DaySailer is considered only marginally self rescuing and I don't know whether there is a difference between the DS 1 and the DS 2.

Obviously, things would have been different had I been single handing and the boat on it's side, as I would not have had as much ballast. I do wish I had looked back to see where the center board was with the mast, pretty much horizontal. With the DS 1 the boat fills pretty much instantly with all the water it's going to take on so there's no waiting around for the boat to settle lower as other compartments fill.

Once righted and the boat awash we really only had a couple of inches of freeboard. We definitely could not have sailed as it was extremely unstable. The first order of business was to get everybody to the middle of the boat for balance and get the sails down. We definitely had chop coming over the windward rail and stuff floating out of the boat over the leeward rail. I lost yet another favorite hat! Even though we noticed the hat when it was only, maybe 2 feet past the rail, there was no way I was going to try to reach out for it, because the boat would definitely have gone over again. I don't have suction balers but I think they would've taken care of the last 8 inches of water which would've been nice. I've dipped the rail a couple of other times before getting ratchets blocks and taking on 6 to 8 inches of water in the cockpit, in those situations it would have been nice to have bailers as I was still able to sail.

After I got back to the dock I did check the floatation tanks and they were all pretty much dry, so we had full floatation plus some additional under the rails. I think if it had been any choppier it's likely we would not have been able to stay ahead of the incoming water and would not have been able to sail home.


<laugh!> OK, agreed: *some* sailing craft (i.e. windsurfers) are almost made to capsize. My comments were meant in the context of the DS, and specifically to the differences being discussed between how a -1 behaves in a capsize/knockdown/whatever we call it, vs. how a -2 behaves. Of course, as you say, conditions and crew play a part as well. The outcome could have been much different had it been a single-hander in a DS2 encountering those same conditions, such as John's TX200 experience of being in the water alone trying to right his boat after his crew mutinied on him ... :shock:

You mention the boat being extremely unstable, so much so that you would not have been able to sail w/o going over again. At the FL120 (pre self-bailer installation), after a couple of hours of getting pounded by waves and having green water breaking over the side, I had water in the bilge, due to various leaks, up to the inspection openings, and a few inches more on top of that in the cockpit. I had to keep sailing until it calmed down enough to where I could even heave-to and bail, but the boat did not feel unstable at all. Never felt even close to going over. Since the -1 and -2 have the same hull, I'm wondering if the sole pan of the -2 might act as a sort of "baffle", keeping the water from sloshing around/to the low side and causing instability? Make any sense?

Does the DePersia bailer even work on the DS1? Any -1 owners out there have one installed?

PS: sorry 'bout the hat - hope it wasn't a Tilley? Or, hope it was - free replacement for life! :D
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby jeadstx » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:53 pm

After the 2012 Tx200 capsize we bailed the boat as much as possible when we got the bow pulled up on the beach. We couldn't get all of the water out of the bilge. At the point when we got the boat close to shore, we started to bail thecockpit. When we got the cockpit/cuddy cabin bailed, the boat was floating a little more and we were able to get the boat closer to shore. When we opened an inspection to start bailing the bilge, water actually poured out (refilling the cockpit) until the level in the bilge was the same as in the cockpit. The bow was higher since the boat was partially beached. We got most of the water out, but some remained in the bilge since we couldn't open the drain plug below the waterline.

The next day sailing to the finish of the Tx200 (about a 25 mile sail) I could feel the remaining water sloshing around inside the bilge. I'm not sure how much was in there, but it drained for some time after getting the boat on the trailer. The water in the bilge felt about the same as our now depleted fresh water supply was at the beginning of the trip. The water in the bilge did not seem to impair the stability of the boat. The "pool noodles" may have spread out the water in the bilge to some degree.

It would seem that on a DS1, the seats (as long as they remain dry inside) would keep water in the cockpit from getting too far to the sides, except for in the cuddy cabin.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby TIM WEBB » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:51 pm

Noodles in the bilge might have even more of a "baffling effect" on water in there?
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby K.C. Walker » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:59 pm

Fortunately, my crew did not mutiny. We were about half mile off an island and about 2 miles up wind to home, so swimming was not an attractive option. Also, having stayed relatively dry from staying on the top side until the boat righted was definitely a plus compared to having to swim and reenter the boat. I definitely keep thinking about how lucky we were and how it could have been a lot more of an ordeal.

Because all of us stayed on board the boat we probably scooped up the maximum amount of water while righting. The plus side is that no one had to swim, the minus side was we had a fair amount more water to bail. As I said, stuff was floating over the leeward rail, so we were well above the seats. Once we got it bailed down to about the seat tops it was much more stable. I would guess that the seat tops of the DS 1 and the DS 2 would be pretty close to the same position in the hull. I would speculate that if the bilge was filled and the water in the cockpit and cabin were up to the seat tops, both boats would handle about the same.

Although I bailed the boat dry and even sponged it dry, I kept getting water over the next day or so. I couldn't figure out where the water was coming from at first but then realized when the boat was on its side the bulkhead over the bow floatation tank, which doesn't have doors, had filled up, as well. The water was slowly leaking back out of that area, so I'm contemplating that maybe I should put some floatation bags up there and provide better drainage.

The bailer of choice for a DS 1 seems to be the Andersen. I was considering putting one in when I redid the hull of my boat. The consensus at that time was that unless one dry sails, they're not foolproof enough. Considering that I have only had to do major bailing one time in five years, I guess I won't go there, though I do think about it. The other times I had water in the cockpit I pulled it up on the trailer and drained it.

I seriously considered a Tilley hat for this season but I seem to lose a favorite hat about once a year to sailing and it just seemed like too much. The one I lost was an REI paddlers hat. And guess what!?… They don't carry it any more.
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby jeadstx » Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:40 pm

Here are a couple of pictures taken by Chuck Pierce (Tx200 event organizer) of my boat being towed to shore after the capsize in 2012. You can get an idea how much water the boat had taken on.
Image
Image

You can see the water shifts from end to end.

Regarding keeping hats, I attach the stampede strap (chin strap for those that don't ride horses) to my shirt collar. This has allowed me not to loose a hat in two years.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Finally joined the ranks of those who have capsized.

Postby K.C. Walker » Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:08 pm

John,

I don't know why I didn't think of attaching the stampede strap to my shirt or PFD. That should help!

Yep, Ranger looks like it's wallowing about the same as Red Tail did. Definitely not a boat you would want to try to sail!
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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