Heave to from running downwind?

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Heave to from running downwind?

Postby Breakin Wind » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:36 pm

In other topic, Salty Dog commented

Salty Dog wrote:I'm not sure what the best thing to do is if caught running down wind with too much sail out, and no motor. In my other boat I could furl the genoa in fire the mtr up pull around to the wind and take a reef in the main fall off, let the genoa out a little bit and go on. Of course I would not be sweating a knock down either in that boat. It would have been fun if I knew what I was doing and not worried about pitch poleing. :D


It reminded me of yet another question I'd intended to ask. This is to anyone...

Heaving to is commonly expressed as tacking without changing the jib sheet settings so the jib back-winds, but is there any reason one couldn't heave to from a reach or down wind run?

I would think a wing & wing run would be the ideal setup because the jib would already be sheeted to the opposite side of the main. In that setting, you would come about in the direction that de-powers the main and as I said, the jib will already be in position to come across the foredeck and backwind into a heave to. If running but not wing & wing or if reaching, then you'd have to preset the jib sheets for backwinding before making the turn, but in the end, it would still convert to a heave-to right?

Thanks - Scott
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Re: Heave to from running downwind?

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:42 am

Scott,

it's indeed possible to get to a hove-to position from starting conditions other than tacking. The problem is that you need to get the boat to lose just enough speed, before the boat will settle in, so you may end up having to practice such alternate maneuvers a bit. Let us know how things work for you, once you get to try all of this out in the spring.

SAIL magazine just had a short article on heaving to and they mention the need to reef for the conditions. Translated to the DS that means you shouldn't be able to expect being able to heave to if you are vastly over canvassed in strong winds, which was the situation faced by Salty Dog (heaving to to put in a reef when conditions aren't too bad does seem to work).

With the cuddy high up front, a DS might "heave to" without any sails, just from windage. :idea: All that is required is for the wind over the hull to generate some small but definite forward drive in addition to pushing the bow down (counteracted by the rudder). Not sure I want to be out in conditions that would make that possible, though. :shock: :shock:

Getting back to Salty Dog's question:
He wrote:What [is] the best thing to do when caught running down wind with too much sail out.

All I can think of is letting main and jib sheets go and rounding up just far enough that the main stalls (starts flapping). At that point the boom would be parallel to the wind. With the remaining momentum it might be possible to round up further (with sails still stalled) which would bring in the boom a bit. At that point, it would be a matter of dropping the halyard and quickly gathering the main.

I have no idea in what wind conditions that would still be possible. As you round up, there will be a point where the main goes from being a barrier to being a foil (that is because the back-swept spreaders will prevent the boom from being at 90°). Rounding up further would stall that foil (main starts flogging, because sheets are loose). If that transition point puts too much heeling force on the boat, you'd go over. But would it?

Quite a few people on the forum have extensive high-wind experience, so let's hear from them.
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Re: Heave to from running downwind?

Postby TIM WEBB » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:35 pm

Sure - do it all the time! The lake I normally sail on is a long, thin, east/west lake that has a dogleg and widens out at the west end. Winds are (usually) out of the east, where the ramps are. It's (usually) wing 'n' wing about 2 miles to the west end (= one beer), heave to, crack another cold cylinder, do any other chores about the boat, then begin the long tacking duel with the sunset back to the ramp ...

There are tricks to heaving to from wing 'n' wing, especially if you are singlehanding. I've done it in winds up to 25 knots, no experience above that (not sure I'd want to!). The first Rule Of Thumb is to make sure to give yourself plenty of room. Get too close to the lee shore, and your only option is to bear away and continue sailing on a beam reach. The next ROT is to remember to put the CB down while still running (it should be up - less drag). It should go down easily, but won't once you turn (DS 2 specific?). Third is to take off the preventer if so equipped, and be ready for the boat to "chinese gybe" if you make the turn too fast.

I like to w 'n' w with the jib to stbd and the main to port, but that's just a quirk of mine - it works either way. Once the 3 ROT's above are done, I'll just slowly push the tiller to port, and let the boat come about to just before the jib back-winds. Set tiller tamer to port, take down whisker pole, sheet in jib to windward, and voila: hove to!

In higher breeze, I'll then set a reef (or two!) for the upwind beat back. The boom is still out all the way, and the main is pretty much out of the equation. The only thing to remember to do at that time is to ease the vang before reefing - don't ask me why I know this ... :oops:
Tim Webb
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(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Heave to from running downwind?

Postby Breakin Wind » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:33 pm

TIM WEBB wrote: Third is to take off the preventer if so equipped, and be ready for the boat to "chinese gybe" if you make the turn too fast.


Thanks Tim, great information. Two questions please.
Having only one summer of sailing experience, I don't think I know what a "preventer" is, nor have I heard the term "chinese gybe"?

I can't help but imagine it has something to do with a Chinese fire drill, although I'm having difficulty visualizing something like that on a sailboat...

Thanks again - Scott
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Re: Heave to from running downwind?

Postby GreenLake » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:32 am

Let me fill in the "preventer" for now. It's a line that keeps the boom forward, in other words, it prevents the boom from swinging around (in a rather dramatic fashion - I think that's what Tim means with his Chinese gybe, but I hadn't heard that term either, so I let him weigh in on that).

A preventer is most useful for downwind, esp. dead downwind situations where small wind shifts or small course changes, or both, could change the "windward" side of the boat, resulting in the boom wanting to come over.

With some experience you'll find out that the jib is the first sail to want to come over, a fact that you can use to sail "wing on wing". (There's a somewhat narrow range of angles you can steer before the main wants to come over. A preventer can keep it safely on one side - but if it starts backfilling, you know it is acting as a brake from that moment on and would correct your course.).

Sailing "by the lee" is another name for the situation when you have passed "dead down wind" and the main is still on the "wrong" side. Essentially, most if not all of the range that you can sail "wing on wing" is sailing by the lee.

If you do decide to do a (controlled) gybe, you'd start by undoing your preventer. Then you pull the boom in, begin the turn, and the minute it comes over, you let the main sheet out quickly, but controlled, so the boom doesn't "slam" into the rigging. Holding on to the main sheet when the sail wants to come over can capsize the boat, and some people also steer the turn as if it was an "S" curve, with a bit of steering the "wrong" or "opposite" direction in the middle. That's supposed to steady the boat.

This is probably more than you can absorb without trying it out on the water - like many things in sailing it's best to alternate between reading and doing, repeating that cycle as often as needed. With some direct experience, the description will make more sense, and with having re-read the description, you'll notice more things the next time you try the maneuver.
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Re: Heave to from running downwind?

Postby TIM WEBB » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:42 pm

Great preventer (and overall gybing) explanation GL. Mine is simply a snap shackle, fastened to the boom with an eyestrap, at a location that allows me to snap it to a sidestay. Something that allows the boom to be lashed to a chainplate would probably be more ideal, but this works well for me. On other/bigger boats, with lifelines and loose-footed mains, I've seen it done as simply a length of line tied around the the boom and the lifeline.

I've always heard the term chinese gybe as pretty much referring to any uncontrolled gybe, but wikipedia defines it as this:

"A Chinese gybe on a sailing vessel is a type of gybe where the upper section of the main sail moves across the boat, filling from the opposite side, whilst the lower section and boom remain on the original side of the vessel. It contrasts with a normal gybe, where the whole sail moves across the boat as the boat turns its stern through the wind. A Chinese gybe is usually induced by too little tension on the vang or kicking strap, allowing the boom to rise up and the leach of the sail to twist excessively."

Jean-Pierre Dick used the term earlier this week when describing what happened to his boat after the keel fell off during the Vendee Globe ... :o
Tim Webb
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(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Heave to from running downwind?

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:25 pm

On big boats I have seen combination preventer / vang. Imagine having two vangs, one on each side fitted to the chain plates instead of to the mast. Then while you tighten one of them, you both apply vang and prevent the boom from coming over. In addition, the vang pulls down more vertically, if the connection point is further aft than the mast. That would work well with downwind vang use, but not so well with the upwind "vang sheeting" that people like K.C. are advocating. Just wanted to add this little wrinkle to the discussion.
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Re: Heave to from running downwind?

Postby K.C. Walker » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:58 pm

I'm finding this topic interesting. Having had a somewhat similar discussion previously where Tim talked about running as one of his favorite points of sail and I really didn't get it, as it is something I pretty much avoid. As might be expected, horses for courses.

If I had a long skinny lake that was my usual sailing venue and the wind mostly went from end to end, I'd obviously have to figure out how to do the same. I don't even own a whisker pole, let alone thinking about a preventer. However, now that it is pointed out I can obviously see that this would make it all more comfortable. Still, I think I'll continue to avoid running as I prefer broad reaching, and especially now that I bought my reaching spinnaker.

Running downwind or broad reaching downwind over canvassed is something to be cautious about. I've certainly found myself heading for a lee shore cooking along on a plane and knowing that it wasn't going to be pretty. The problem is judging the apparent wind change that one will be going through. If it's blowing 25 and your planing along at 9-10 kn the apparent wind feels pretty reasonable at 15 downwind, but if you round up all of a sudden it's over 30. You definitely better be ready!
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: Heave to from running downwind?

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:31 pm

One of my favorite sailing venues is a series of bays, with a very skinny one a the far end, usually pointing straight into the prevailing summer winds. When that is my destination, my situation is the reverse of Tim's (with beating before running), and if things go as planned, a dinner or some other treat at the far end). Going downhill, I have the luxury of a launch that's sheltered behind a head. On top of that, stronger winds are conspicuous due to their absence, unless a front happens to come through.

There's a wider section halfway home, and I've been tempted to figure out whether some form of broad reach would get me back faster, but it boils down to the lack of sufficient wind to get a speed advantage (no funneling on the open section -- so even less wind there). I think it would make sense the minute I could plane on the reach, but not plane going downwind. From reading the other thread on the UPS, I've concluded that I don't know enough to conclude whether it would make a noticeable difference on that return leg.
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