DSI vs DSII competitive edge & why???

[CentralCoastSailor]

I have two DSIs and a DSII - recently I considered selling the DSII. This brought a huge "don't get a DSII" contingent out of the "fiberglasswork" (aka woodwork) about the DSII. One prospective buyer was polite and simply said "my friends are telling me I should get a DSI....and this potential buyer is new to sailing and never raced. To me thisis the perfect person for a DSII.

True that you see virtually NO DSIIs in the NACR top 10 (or more) - but WHY? In the "blind taste test" in my driveway it is abundantly clear that the DSII is a far better constructed boat! Hull to deck seam, lack of the center thwart, line controlled CB. Mine came from the factory with a tapered Proctor mast and it has NEW (literally new, purchased and put away) JOTZ racing sales. Sadly....my compadres in the local fleet tend to give me a sideways glance and the "too bad about charlie and that DSII" look! I've raced for decades and won more races that a lot of folks will ever enter - and YEP....I kinda suck with this boat (but I'm really out for the fun and being around sailors, not so much the etched beer glass these days and have old age ADHD so tend to be distracted by ......hey look SQUIRREL!!!). I've searched the forum for answers....the very best on I have come across is that the DSI is far easier to customize and to repair (restore) beign a more open boat. BUT - if you've ever taken an knock down (oh yes I have) the DSI is a BITCH to bail! The DSII (in theory anwyay) can self bail and has posiive floatiation - again theory has it! The perfect set up for the new-ish sailor?!

SO ---- can we have an INTELLIGENT and KNOWLEGABLE discussion on thy the DSII shouldn't be as competitive as a DSI??? I'd love to hear your thoughts. OR, any questions - again I have and sail both, so I feel pretty knowledgeable on the boats in great detail.

What say you all????! (and please be nice ..... you don't want to trigger me! --- HA!)

[tomodda]

Why is a DS1 better regarded for racing than a DS2? Un peu de tout....

Mainly, the DS1 is supposed to be lighter, having no false floor. I've never weighed the two side-by-side, so don't know if actually true. But perception is reality... And, as you already know, in one-design racing any little advantage, perceived or real, can win races. I'll also note that as you take water aboard (spray, waves, centerboard leaking), it's easier to scoop it out of a DS1 than potentially have it hidden under the false floor in the DS2. Yes, I know, auto-bailers, but they won't get water out of the space between the hulls, and water DOES get in there. Anyway, perception? reality?

Other than that, it's what you noted - easier to customize and repair. Although I still haven't figured out a good way to stick extra blocks onto the bilges (inside of the hull) or my DS1 without screwing thru to the exterior. Before you ask, turning block for my vang sheet, as I lead it up to the centerboard, Etchells-style. Anyway, false floor would help.

Lastly, as you noted, the top NACR winners are DS1s, so..... perception is reality.

All that being said, for a beginning racer /sailor, such as your last prospective buyer, these considerations are a completely moot point. It's like giving a F1 car to a beginning driver. Well, more like giving a 1958 F1 pickup truck with carbon-fiber wheels to a beginning driver, point being that he/she is not going to notice the difference that the fancy wheels might make on this jalopy. If I were you (famous last words), I'd tell folks that you have a fantastic boat with crisp racing sails that will get the prospective buyer/racer to the top 5 in his/her local fleet. If they ask "What about the NACR's" you say "This has excellent trade value if you want to get a DS1, but DS2's have also won. It's the sailor, not the boat". Or words to that effect. Good luck!

[CentralCoastSailor]

Agree completly....the boat will sail a LOT BETTER than I can (or a novice sailor!). Just an FYI - I've heard that the DSIIs are HEAVY for years. So, being a natural skeptic I weighed mine - it is 573 pounds soaking wet! SO THERE.....neener, neener! The original DSI (and I assume where the weight spec came from) had mahogany floor boards - so I doubt that there's a heck of a lot of difference between the DSII molded floor and wood. The molded floor is hollow. I did a CB mod and rebedded the through bolt and installed a decent bushing in the CB as well as rebedding and replacing the cables (shoulda gone with dyneema though) - it is always dry in the "in-between" of this boat. I did manage to forget the plug the other day....crew mentioned he thought we were skinking - we were. LIfted the boat with the crane and it took a long LONG time to drain!!! But she's very dry. My beef with the DSII is really simple: the distance between one's butt and the floor is too small for those of us that are age challenged! If you're a teenager, not a big deal ---- but 50 years on it's a bit more difficult. The "geometry" between butt and floor makes pusing off to get hiked out a bit tough (I really just need a couple more inches of butt lift - hey maybe one of those recliners that stands you up would work??). I actually screwed a mahogany cleat down the centerline of the floor (about 1 1/2" x 3/4" tall) to act as a push-off to get my arse on the rail - works a treat. It's funny, after "showing" the boat a couple times and going back over the stuff I've done I decided just to keep it. What the hell - I have upwards of a dozen boats (including my wife's 30' Lyle Hess Falmouth Cutter, Cape Dory Typhoon, Compac Picnic Cat, Cape Cod Bullsete, and I build boats too so we don't ever run out in case of armageddon ----). Indeed Senator Feinstein - the dogma (sailing) lives loudly within us (go ahead, google that!) On this boat I got it from the second owner - always in a garage, never painted, EXCELLENT condition, proctor mast, etc, etc. I even got the original 2 hp Evinrude that was NEVER USED! (yep - new with decals). The original paperwork, including bill fo sale and list of options, etc, etc. So ----- what the heck I more-or-less sold it back to myself! When I got this boat, I did a master-class centerboard mod to keep the cables from slipping down alongside the board and jamming, swapped out the trailer tongue (it was twisted), and replaced the transome tube. Check out a few snapshots https://photos.app.goo.gl/enj4zwZdza5eidvL7 and if that's not enough it's named for one of my daughters - so I think it's a keeper. I have two others 1630 and 571 that are in the "to-do pile" for some work.

[Alan]

Several years ago, crew and self were staying at a hotel next door to the Morro Bay Yacht Club, home base to the very active Daysailer fleet 128. We ended up chatting with the fleet's official race measurer, who said that DSIIs weigh in at 700-750 pounds. That's quite a bit heavier than the nominal weight of either the DSI or DSII, which, if memory serves, is 575 pounds. Maybe that explains it?

[CentralCoastSailor]

Yep.....and that same person was there when we weighed mine - so I'm just guessing that there is some (maybe a lot) of variation? I've heard that same for years that hey were 200 - 300 pounds heavy! I'd love to hear if others have actual weights.

[GreenLake]

Slight thread drift, but the way to fix anything to the "bilge" is to glue a pad on the inside and fix to that. Depending on what you want to connect, you can either put in some machine screws from the bottom before you glue it on and secure your hardware on the ends sticking out. Or you can make a pad with a bit of metal embedded that you can drill and tap (for high load applications).

A few sqaure inches of surface should be enough for epoxy glue to withstand any load you can put on it on a DS.

[tomodda]

@GL: Thank you for the suggestion, obvious in hindsight - more gluing surface. Will give it a try, although I've already had the gelcoat let go of the substrate (over a smaller area), while staying nicely epoxied to my (too small) pad. Well, this is the advantage of the DS1 being so easy to tinker with - mistakes are easy to fix!

As for DS2 weight, I a little surprised that @CentralCoastSailor's came in right near the regulation 575, good to know. Truth is, for most of us the main weight savings to be had is our own bodyweight (ok, speaking for just myself maybe!). That bring said, I remember wearing two sweatshirts as a wee little Opti sailor and dunking myself in the water pre-race to have more hiking-out weight. Perfectly legal back in the 70's, dunno about now. But Oh! To be young, light, and fit again...

[CentralCoastSailor]

For sure - if weight really mattered to MY speed that much I'd probably eat more salads! Truth be told, ESPECIALLY in Morro Bay, knowledge of current and how to use it to advantage as well as how to avoid shifting bottom sand (we tend to do a lot of farm work --- plowing furrows) is probaby as much a key to winning as are a few pounds. Of course it's always best to have a boat that is light, but it's not the most critical thing for novice sailors.

On mounting hardware, I've gotten to the point of drilling and tapping fiberglass. In the DSII some of the lay up is substantial enought to get adequate thread length. And if it's not stout enough bonding a bit of G10 (or similar) to where you want to mount a "thing" and then drill/tap holes for the mount is a very clean way to go.

A few guys in our fleet have incredible boats - absolute engineering wonders to behold ---- and for sure these are the top boats. So putting together a boat that will win races is important, and so is a great crew and a skipper with skills and knowledge up to the races. BUT - some how I can't help but feel that the push for the best boats is probably keeping some beginner sailors on the dock. Hunting for a "winning boat" is a lot of fun, but I think that getting in the boat and on the water in a boat that is "good enough" is a better way to go. I always remind folks that DSs are so popular for so long that it's best to get a decent boat (that doesn't need a complete resto-mod) and get out sailing. THEN if you find racing is in your genetics trade up. You'll just about always get what you paid for out of an old DS and that's a huge point in favor of the DS boats. My thought is so much emphasis about the "fast boat" is keeping potential sailors on the dock. I know directly of several). By pursing this "Ford vs Chevy" familly feud about the two boats I think that we're pushing some folks new to the sport to stay ashore - and that is a huge disservice! There are a fair amount of DSIIs around the west coast and they are less expensive for sure. We should consider finding a way to promote these boats and get them on the water (I'm pretty sure there are about three times as may DSIIs produced as DSIs). MAYBE there should be seperate fleets, or if they DSIIs really are slower boats there should be seperate Portsmouth numbers? I think this is an opportunity to encourage more folks to get into the sport and makes it a bit more possible by making the pool of available boats much larter. But by encouraging folks to wait for a "fast boat" when they've never crossed a start line is probably a real disservice to them. MY OPINION ONLY ---- naturally!

[GreenLake]

@CentralCoastSailor: Very good points! Getting people on the water is a larger game than winning the Nationals. I sail in a mixed-fleet, no handicap series. There are too many faster-by-design boats on the water (compared to earlier seasons) that placing is out of reach for a DS. Still, it gets me out of the water and there's always some boat that I can have a private race with.

Reading the wind, whether as such, or influenced by some of the local quirks is definitely one of the keys to gaining on other boats; the other is tactics like handling traffic. (Weaving around a hundred other boats, most of them much bigger, is a challenge of its own).

So far, we haven't established whether DSII or DS1 has an inherent advantage.