What to check out before purchase?

Topics primarily or specifically about the DS1. Many topics are of general interest, so please use forum sections on Rigging, Sails, etc. where appropriate.

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What to check out before purchase?

Postby apell » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:38 am

I have come across what I think is a DS 1. There is no manufacturer stamp on the transom that I could find, unless it's under the lichen growing on the boat. I'm wondering what I should check out before I buy it.

Here's what I can see: The boat has been sitting under some shrubbery and has leaves, etc. sitting in the cockpit. The seats are formed into the hull and do not have lifting lockers under them (which led me to my thinking it's a DS 1) and have a pseudo-woodgrain on them. There is no door or hatch cover into the cuddy (again DS 1?) The partial mast in the cuddy has been replaced with a pipe, unless this is normal. There is no standing water in the boat. There is also no way that I can check to see what is in the hull floatation area. It doesn't have those removable port lids to look inside. When I checked underneath, the centerboard is there and it seems to be connected to the cable. THe CB bolt seems fine. There is no deflection of the hull where it's sitting on the trailer rails.

THe mast and boom are present, the rudder is there but the tiller is shot. No sails, but the asking price is only $200. But, is the amount of work too much to get it going?

What should I check out?

Thanks for any help...
a
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Re: What to check out before purchase?

Postby Solarwinds » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:44 pm

$200 may actually be too much (even free may be too much), especially since you're not sure what kind of boat it is.
No sails, so you'll need $ 450 minimum for a set from Intensity IF the boat is a Daysailer.
A pipe? I usually stay away from boats that are fixed/customized with parts that aren't stock, or at the very least, meant for boats.
If they used a piece of pipe maybe the mast isn't standard height and standard DS sails won't work.
You say there is no tiller (so you need a tiller and tiller extension)
No mention of whether the jib tracks and cars are there, mainsheet block, all the other cleats and blocks. A DS1 has a handle to lower/raise the centerboard.
No mention of standing or running rigging, if you need to replace all of that, take a look on D&R Marine's website, you'll see that stuff starts to add up real fast.
At the very least, you need to make sure what boat it is they are selling and then consider whether it might not make more sense to spend a little more intially and not have to replace/repair that much to get it in the water.
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Re: What to check out before purchase?

Postby GreenLake » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:16 pm

Replacement of the lower part of a deck-stepped mast by a compression post is not a concern.

If the boat is older than '71, and has no placque, then, if it is an O'Day, it would be a DS1. At that vintage, the seats should be molded and glassed to the outer hull. I've seen fake wood plank patterns on the deck (not the seats) of very early DS1s (the ones with the wooden seats). The molded seats should show a faint diamond pattern (to make them less slippery). The same pattern should be found on the foredeck (molded).

A DS1 of that vintage would not have a CB cable, but a bronze handle.

So, there are some concerns that this may not actually be a DS1. Photos would help.

As to the wisdom of restoring a boat like this.

Financially, it makes no sense. Ever.

Buying sails isn't even part of that calculation. Sails are a consumable - their lifetime is less than that of the boat, and sooner or later you will replace them. Same with much of the rigging. So, just add the price of that to the price of "hull-with-mast" and it begins to come close to the ballpark - that is, the lower range of (more or less) ready-to-sail boats.

The real issue is the unpaid sweat-equity. Now, if you need / want a winter project and your only alternative is to build a wooden boat from scratch in your kitchen, then this could be for you.

The laminate needs to be sound. No deflection, no soft spots. (There may be various wood reinforcements under the foredeck, side decks, in the transom - these are always suspect in a boat that age, but fixable - see under "sweat equity"). Likewise the state of the flotation. Just count on adding the inspection ports, removing whatever water-logged foam you find and replacing it with pool noodles (something people have done with more complete and pricier boats).

Second, the spars need to be sound (no corrosion) and straight, sail slots clear and not bent. (Masthead sheaves, if brittle and aged can be replaced)

With these three items sound, you'd have a foundation for a project.

A DS1 of that vintage should have had these pieces of wooden trim (in addition to "hidden structural wood"): floor boards, coamings on each side of the cockpit and across the rear. The coamings are required to complete the structural support. If missing you have no choice but to replace them - you decide how close to the original. There should also be two short pieces of wood (thwarts) that connect the CB top to the seats. These are also needed for structural support - if not present or not salvageable, they would need to be replaced). The wood used originally was mahogany for most of these items, so you may need to hunt for a supplier of suitable replacement wood.

If you replace the floorboards by a layer of foam core that you glass over, that would be a super upgrade, but technically challenging. It will make the boat "better than new" in terms of stiffness, but read the thread called "The core project" somewhere in the improvements section of this forum.

Making a tiller is not super difficult, neither is replacing the original rudder by your own re-build. Another item where you can reach "better than new". Tiller and rudder can also be purchased ready-made from third parties. Both in class-legal and in perfectly functional, but just not class-legal configurations. (Depends on whether you intend to race, or sell boat ever to a racer)

If you find that the CB is not in a good shape, then replacing it with one that has an actual foil shape to it will again yield something "better than new". Making your own, if you are handy, is not difficult, but third-party boards of good quality are available.

So, for some of the replacements/upgrades you may need to do, you can trade cash for sweat-equity. With sails, rigging and both foils you might get into an expense that would be close to what a better-maintained boat would cost you. However, you would have a boat that at that point, other than cosmetics, is already "better maintained" because it would have new sails, new rigging and high performance foils.

You still have to do the structural tasks of replacing flotation, inspecting/replacing structural and decorative wood items, so you will "lose" by not ever getting paid back for that. Now comes the cosmetic work.

If you are a stickler for a perfect paint job, you'll never break even :) But if you value function above appearance, starting from a sound hull and spars should be at least somewhat viable project (and beats building your own wooden boat in your kitchen).

Much of what you read here might be useful, even if the boat you are looking at is not a DS, but let's see some photos.

Finally, if you are doubtful that you can get everything done in one winter season, done to the point where you can go sailing, don't buy.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: What to check out before purchase?

Postby Solarwinds » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:41 am

Don't know whether you bought the boat but it would be nice to see pictures, if you have them, to see whether or not the boat is a
daysailer.
Regarding greenlake's comment that sails are consumables, well, that depends on what you're going to do with your boat.
Consumables to me are fuel, sunblock, snacks, beer and whatever else you have on board to make the day just a little nicer.
Sails, well, that depends. If you buy a daysailer to seriously race it because the one design fleet, nearby ,that most strikes your fancy, is the daysailer
fleet and, like I said, you're serious about racing, well then sails definitely are consumables because you're going to be getting new sails every 2 years. Maybe every 3, maybe even every year. Depends on how serious you are. I doubt very much that you will buy them from Intensity, either, because they probably don't sell serious sails for racers. You're not going to spend $ 450, either, you're going to spend a lot more.
On the other hand, if you bought a boat with original sails and there are many, many daysailers sitting unused on their trailers for the last 25 years with original sails (my boat came to me with original sails and it's from the mid-60's) then sails are not consumables and you definitely need to figure in the cost of sails to calculate how much it's going to cost to actually get out on the water and sail.
I don't figure in the expense to feed and water my crew, fuel, pretzels, beer, etc., but sails, unless you're a racer, can't be put in the petty cash column.
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Re: What to check out before purchase?

Postby jeadstx » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:09 am

Two boats come to mind that could be mistaken for a DS I are the American 16 (15'-10" LOA) and the Discoverer 18 (about 18' LOA) that were made by the American Fiberglass Company (AFC) in the early 70's. The description of the compression post, the "pseudo wood grain" on the seats and no covers inside the cuddy cabin remind me of an American 16 I owned at one time. Attached are a couple pictures of these two Day Sailer "knock off" boats. The one with the red hull was the A16 I owned before I got my DS II, the other is a D18. My A16 never was restored and is a bit dirty. I found my DS II before I did work on it.

Does it have a double hull? The A16 and D18 did, an early DS I does not.

Starboard-Stern.jpg
American 16
Starboard-Stern.jpg (40 KiB) Viewed 9470 times

American+18+cockpit.jpg
Discoverer 18 (American 18)
American+18+cockpit.jpg (18.6 KiB) Viewed 9470 times


John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: What to check out before purchase?

Postby GreenLake » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:14 am

There's an intermediate take on sails. Between cruising with original sails and competitive racing with a new set every other year.

I had original sails with mine that looked like they may have been purchased used (i.e. sailnumber removed), and after a good number of years sailing the boat (casual daysailing), I noticed that they were mostly good for downwind. So, I got a new set of sails. Mid-price. I've since sailed the same number of years with this set, but I stepped up the number of times I sail each year (joined the local beer-can "race"). My average number of trips is now double, as I continue to go on casual daysails as well.

I'm now at the point where this second set is showing signs of age, and I'm seriously contemplating replacement. If I average the purchase price over the years, the cost is quite reasonable. If I average the cost over the number of trips, it's definitely in the ball park for the beer consumption after each trip. :D

I could probably nurse these along for a few more seasons, but there comes the point where that's not as much fun. That's why I'm happy to think of sails as something that needs regular (but not necessarily super-frequent) replacement.

When you sell a DS your asking price will factor in the state of the sails and rigging. Not perfectly, but a boat that has newer sails and rigging (even if not otherwise pristine) might get you $1500-$1900. So, if the OP ends up spending that much, the major difference is the unpaid sweat equity. But if hull and spars are sound, the result might be a nice boat that sails well. (But without pictures, we really know nothing).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: What to check out before purchase?

Postby GreenLake » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:17 am

Both of the knock-offs shown look like they would present similar issues in making a decision (and most of the discussion might apply). One big difference is that neither could be sailed competitively - except in those places that have "mixed" fleets.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: What to check out before purchase?

Postby dsmorgan » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:10 am

I have been looking to buy a daysailer and there is an American Fiberglass Discoverer 18 for sale in my area. The benefit of the Discoverer is that the cuddy is open and there's a possibility of sleeping in there as the cuddy runs, without disruption, into the cockpit. The big problem is that the rear deck has been damaged and the transom/stern of the boat is loosly connected to the deck itself. The fiberglass looks damaged when seen from the inside. Is this an easy fix? Does anyone know the quality of these boats? I haven't found much info on them.
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Re: What to check out before purchase?

Postby jeadstx » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:07 am

There is a forum on Yahoo that deals with the American Fiberglass boats.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: What to check out before purchase?

Postby GreenLake » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:45 am

Fiberglass repairs are not really all that hard. You may wish to go the West System or SystemThree websites and download their manuals and instructions. If still unsure, purchase the suggested materials and lay up a practice sheet (flat, on a piece of plastic). That will give you a feel for the project, and you can reuse the sheet in a future project, e.g by using it as a backing plate on the inside of a repair.

As John suggested, for anything specific to your type of boats, there are other forums that are more appropriate than this one -- we are a bit specialized on O'Day DaySailers...
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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