#37

Topics primarily or specifically about the DS1. Many topics are of general interest, so please use forum sections on Rigging, Sails, etc. where appropriate.

Moderator: GreenLake

Re: #37

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:15 am

Tom,

what a nice write-up. Some comments, if I may.

I leave everything connected that I possibly can, and it's cut the setup time down to something reasonable. Main stays on the boom (with outhaul loose, if I remember) and gets rolled next to it, then both stowed on a bench (possible w/ a DS1).

Vang stays attached to boom, I unhook the other end, wrap the whole thing around boom and sail and clip to itself.

Jib sheet is knotted together so its continuous, and stays on the boat. (The jib clew is connected via a soft shackle that forms a Prusik loop. That, or use Tim Webb's clever alternative: threading a thin soft-shackle through the sheet).

Jib sheets has Barber inhauls; they stay connected as well.

Main sheet stays connected, I cinch it tight after stowing the boom (with its end tucked beside the motor well, it's secure - a cushion and a fender protect my bench/thwart, and a bungee around the thwart holds the forward end of boom and sail).

I now have a 2:1 jib halyard tensioner. That one hooks into a loop on the jib halyard. It "hooks" with an open hook. Stays on deck and gets hooked after I cleat the halyard to the mast. Equally easy to undo. Now If I could just teach my crews not to take it apart :)

My trailer is tall enough that I can pull the boat out with EP Carry and rudder still connected. They are so much faster to remove on land (for launching the EP carry gets flipped up, but the rudder will need to be fitted in the water, because it would interfere when the boat slides in backwards.

You get the idea: think through what you need to undo and what can be left rigged and you might get back to under 45 mins by yourself.

Definitely don't like shipping water, but with the right crew we'll drag the rubrail through the water in a blow. I have a reef, for when I want to take it easy. (Reef line stays attached to sail/boom).

I don't have a jib downhaul; never felt I needed one, except for some reason we could have used one the other day. Motoring a short distance between two docks, with the main already rolled but the jib tried to climb back up the stay. May need to think about one.

Topping lift. As you suspected, not sure about that broad reach of yours. What wind speeds? I don't have one, so I can't compare, but I like the description of your setup. I could see raising the boom a bit in really light winds to keep the leech from closing.

Anyway, great post!
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 6137
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: #37

Postby tomodda » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:01 am

Hi GL:

Thanks for the comments. Answering a few thing that you've bought up:

I don't have reeflines (or even the necessary holes in my main), so "taking it easy" means not raising the jib. Not ideal, but that's what I've got for now. Of course, I also flatten the main as much as possible to keep things manageable in higher winds. Anyway, proper reefing is a "next year project." Right now, higher winds means that I need to dig up a crew to help me - at least if I wanna have fun rather than a struggle.

Yes, pulling the mains'l clew upwards on a broad reach is a light-wind trick, no need for it when you have a decent wind. Bottom line is that an easily-adjustable topping lift is very useful, at least to me.

Rigging/unrigging the Vang - the problem is not the boom attachment, it's the attachments to the mast. One block and two cascade lines, going to two different attach points (tabernacle and eyestrap). add to that the two ends of the Cunningham cascade, which also attach to the eyestrap, and there's a lot of stuff that has to come off the mast when I unship the boom.

Hmmmm...I'm wondering. Like you, I leave the mains'l on the boom, just flake it down and secure it with bungee ties. Then I loosen the uphaul and the mainsheet, remove the vang/cunningham and shove the boom as far into the cuddy as possible. What if I just left the boom and mains'l on the mast? What if I flake down the sail, as per usual, but leave some slack at the clew and slide the bottom slug off the mast, together with the gooseneck. Then I can just "fold" the boom up against the mast, and "unfold" it when I'm ready to sail again. In practice, I wouldn't fold the boom UP to the mast, instead I'd drop the mast DOWN to the boom. Then I'd tie the boom to the mast and store the whole thing in place. Mmmmm... can I loose the mainsheet enough for this to work? How much extra wear and tear will I cause? What about UV damage from leaving my mainsail stored out in the sun? The advantage of doing all this is to save me from bending the main to the mast (damn mast slugs!), the disadvantage is that there is a lot that can go wrong.

Well, it's worth experimenting with. For starters, let me try leaving the Vang attached to the boom and wrapped around, like you do. If I shift around one of my snapshackles, I may be able to simplify my cascade attachments.

Yes, I rig the EP Carry motor and ship the rudder on land, I also have enough clearance on the trailer. Now, if I could just remember to always put the drain plug in the bilges..... Maybe if I tie it off to my tiller? FWIW, I drilled a hole into the "handle" on top of my plug and strung a keeper loop through it, to help on not losing it. May as well use the loop to tie it to my tiller. Also FWIW, don't hold the plug in your left hand while you drill with your right hand. Took two weeks for the ensuing hole in thumb to heal......

Jib sheets is not a problem for me - like you, I keep them knotted together, great idea! The clew is connected with a special split-apart snap shackle. It came original with the boat and works well, but I've never seen anything like it before. Otherwise, yes I'd use a soft shackle. Anyway, a continuous jib sheet is a wonderful thing, makes tacking much easier. It stays on the boat when I unrig, as do the barber (in)haulers.

Jib halyard tensioner is definitely on my to-do list. I thought I didn't need one until I got to experience an entire day of 20+ knot wind. No matter how much I readjusted the halyard, we had big ol' scallops in the jib luff - horrible to see and surely didn't help our boatspeed.

And yes, half the utility of the jib downhaul is just to keep the jib from riding up the stay. Pull the jib sheet taut and the sail stays nice and quiet on the foredeck. But as I said, I sail under main alone more than I really want to. I had my fishing buddy aboard last week again, in a great 18-20kt wind, but I kept the jib down so he could trawl in peace. We caught NOTHING and I wasted a perfectly good wind, but we still had fun and it was a beautiful day, so that's what counts :)

Tom
tomodda
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:04 am

Re: #37

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:57 pm

I have a cascade as well, for my vang, but everything terminates at the same shackle each end (mine is not 20:1, only 12:1, but).

About storing mast and boom - there used to be someone on this forum who rigged a setup where he could fold the mast onto the boom. His setup involved having the tabernacle above the gooseneck. Not suggesting this, but you're not alone in looking for a solution in that direction.

My drain plug has been on a lanyard from day one. I usually leave it in, because I always put a tarp over the boat, but on the occasions that it has to come of (e.g. after sluicing salt water out of the boat), I leave it dangling, e.g. hanging into the motor well.

Post a picture of your special shackle some time. Would love to see that.

For the jig downhaul, my thought was to have a line that's part of the sail, if I ever did one. The free end would be along the foot and terminate at the clew. You'd have to reach forward to the clew to pull on it, but that shouldn't be a problem. That way, I would never have to "rig" it. Sailmakers have little cleats that can be part of a sail. More common on bigger boats. I wouldn't get the benefit of a reverse 2:1, but that's perhaps all for the good.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 6137
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: #37

Postby tomodda » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:44 pm

Speaking of 2:1, how happy are you with your 2:1 jib halyard tensioner? Is 2:1 enough or would you be better off with a bigger purchase? Of course, a bigger purchase also means PURCHASING more hardware :). Seriously, I'm thinking about it for next update, doing a 2:1 purchase would cost me $30ish bucks, 3:1 is $45-50, and 4:1 would cost me $60ish. I'm willing to splash out the cash, but do I really need anything more than 2:1 for the jib halyard "fine-tuner"?

Tom
tomodda
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:04 am

Re: #37

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:17 pm

I think the 2:1 is quite fine. What I like about my setup is that the halyard gets cleated normally, so I don't have to worry about the tensioner being "secure", so I can just hook it in with a hook, not even a shackle (and the hook was part of the block I purchased). I use very thin line (3mm, I believe). Works like a charm. All I need is a better cleat for it, I was tying it off on the horn cleats on deck. That's not really optimal.

My biggest problem was with the jib halyard being tied off at the mast on a horn cleat, it was impossible to not lose some of the tension during belaying. And the total force I was able to bring to bear was just shy of what I needed. That's why, for me at least, 2:1 (even after friction losses) is fully sufficient. (Well, in 20+ winds, I might have to luff up to adjust, but as it's now just a quick pull, that's not a problem).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 6137
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: #37

Postby tomodda » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:19 pm

Just showing off today:

IMG_20190730_115300.jpg
New/Old Jammer
IMG_20190730_115300.jpg (75.51 KiB) Viewed 2713 times


I've replaced the ugly, old, falling apart and constantly getting stuck mainsheet jammer (block and swivel cam) with a "custom-made" jammer. I took my original Lewmar Ratchet Block (made of Tufnol, very old-school) and mounted it on a FICO swivel that I found on ebay, it's more or less from the time this boat was built, late 50's, early 60's. I had a beautiful (in my opinion) bronze cam cleat leftover from re-rigging the jib sheets. It was hidden under layers of old brown varnish, I was amazed at what I found once I put a wirebrush to it. So I machined a plate to attach old cam to new/old swivel arm, grabbed some nuts and bolts and voila! a 1958-style jammer for my 1958 DaySailer. Yes, I know it won't make the boat go one snail's shake of the tail faster, but it looks nice and makes me happy. Isn't that why we sail?
tomodda
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:04 am

Re: #37

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:27 pm

Nice.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 6137
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: Flippen' Flipped, Finally!

Postby ShallowSeas » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:01 am

tomodda wrote:
IMG_20190323_202141_crop_889x679-800x611.jpg


Yay! Finally done painting/sanding/compounding/waxing and here she is! Even managed to hoist her up and flip her back over. Been so long, I'd almost forgotten what the topsides look like.

Tomorrow... Trailer!


First, the boat looks gorgeous, great job.

Second, my first post to the forum.

My question is more about the hoist. I did search the forum for a while, but found nothing specific to this question. I can build a sturdy and safe frame, but I wonder about long term effects of hanging with two straps. Is there any danger of the hull slightly warping over time? I would probably get some wider strapping, perhaps 4", but I do not think that would make a difference to the hull.

Thanks!
ShallowSeas
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 7:13 am

Re: Flippen' Flipped, Finally!

Postby GreenLake » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:28 am

ShallowSeas wrote:Second, my first post to the forum.

My question is more about the hoist. I did search the forum for a while, but found nothing specific to this question. I can build a sturdy and safe frame, but I wonder about long term effects of hanging with two straps. Is there any danger of the hull slightly warping over time? I would probably get some wider strapping, perhaps 4", but I do not think that would make a difference to the hull.

Thanks!


Welcome to the forum.

You can hoist a DS on 3/8" ropes, if you want. The hull is sturdy enough to withstand that while lifting it on/off the trailer, for example. Or while flipping it. Now, if you were planning to store it that way under your garage roof, I might worry about warping. However, why would you? The only scenario I can think for long-term hoist usage of some kind is the dockside hoist where the goal is to keep your DS over the water. For that scenario, you could use wider straps, or switch to a design, where the hull is supported on something like bunks, like on a trailer. (For storage on land, the normal scenario would be to leave the boat on the trailer.)

I don't think there's a lot of experience with keeping a DS in a sling for extended periods. We do have experience with narrow trailer bunks, but those are parallel to the centerline of the hull and in that direction, the rear of the hull is vulnerable to denting. A DS1 with molded seats has a hard line running fore and aft. A strap that crosses the hull would support the hull at both seat edges and the apex of the shallow V at the center, or three points that resist bending in the fore-aft direction, and therefore can spread the load. (The forward strap would support the keel, which is even stronger). Therefore, it's actually conceivable that this is a non-issue with reasonably wide straps.

Do you own an older DS1 or a DSII. (or one of the recent DS1s). For those other hulls, the situation may be slightly different.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 6137
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: #37

Postby ShallowSeas » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:52 am

Thanks for the prompt reply!

This is a '65 DS. I want it my garage for the winter so I can have some extended time to putter, and possibly repaint the bottom. (More on that later) From everything you said, what make sense is to add bunks to spread the load, especially for the aft strap. The front strap can have a single notched bunk where the keel roller is. This system should have at least as much support as it gets on the trailer, and in approximately the same places.
ShallowSeas
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 7:13 am

Re: #37

Postby ShallowSeas » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:02 am

Another thought is that this boat has been rigged with a three lift points. The PO only raced, and the club would hoist it on and off the trailer with a little dock crane. My guess is that these points are not meant for long term support either.
ShallowSeas
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 7:13 am

Re: #37

Postby GreenLake » Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:58 pm

Just put it upside down on some stacks of lumber with some old tires/styrofoam for padding. Or, if you like to keep it upright, set it down on the same kind of support. Upside down is great for painting and you'd be able to support the boat in a way that it will handle well. (I've kept mine upside down for a winter with no ill effects).

You could use padded saw horses, but they would have to be ones that you'd trust with 3-400# loads and that are stable. I build up a hollow stacked square of 4x4" or 4x6" and found that a stable support (I didn't have a hoist, so I just had a friend help me lift each end, while somebody added another layer of support until we had it at the height we wanted.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 6137
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: #37

Postby tomodda » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:08 pm

Old #37 spent a winter upside down on two haybales - one at the foredeck, one under the transom deck. No problems at all, and perfect for fairing, sanding, painting, waxing. Of course, for the waxing part, I had the ghostly virtual voice of GreenLake whispering in my ear about what a stupid idea that was! ;-)
tomodda
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:04 am

Re: #37

Postby ShallowSeas » Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:09 am

Upside down does sound good for safe winter storage and bottom/CB work. There's just the trick of flipping it over.
ShallowSeas
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 7:13 am

Re: #37

Postby GreenLake » Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:45 pm

Nothing to it. Launch boat onto ground. Would suggest a bit of old carpet to avoid scratches.

Two ways to do it:
  1. With two helpers, it's easy to flip a boat.
  2. If you don't have any friends, or a narrow garage, suspend two blocks from the ceiling (with a ~10:1 purchase each). Then make two fixed loops of rope to use as slings (each rope passes through a suspended block). Use them to lift the boat, pull out the trailer, build your support and then rotate the DS in the air and lower down. (Better, lower it down first, so you can use friction on the ground to aid in rolling, then lift, support and lower down again). You just need to position the knots so that the rope slings can run through their blocks as you turn the boat.

No need to get fancy with the hoisting equipment if it's only used for temporary lifting. The working loads need to be in the ~500# range, which is why I put together block&tackle etc. from sailing parts with known ratings. Instead of the two 10:1 purchases, you can use a pair of trailer winches for example, if you have a place to mount them on a wall (but then you'll need some blocks to lead the supports up and over). Some H/W may sell cheap pre-assembled sets of block and tackle. If you can't get better than 6:1, you can add a single block to make a "cascade". That also means the block&tackle only needs to be rated to ~250#.

I've done it both ways. The method with space and helpers is way cheaper&easier, but if you don't have either, you substitute money and preparation.

The boat weighs somewhat over 500# empty; if you are willing to assume that the boat is never fully supported on one sling, you'd pick a WL rating a bit over 1/2 the weight (to account for imbalances). That would give you 350# as the barest minimum. These numbers, as any similar numbers in this forum, are intended to show how one might think about determining required ratings. It's up to you to determine whether to apply this line of thinking and to decide for yourself on what working load ratings to apply to any project.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 6137
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

PreviousNext

Return to Day Sailer I Only

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

cron