Flotation, DS I

[Guest]

I have a '69 DS I, after the redesign of the flotation. Since I singlehand, I'd like to be assured of a "higher" capsize position that I think I'll have if I do nothing. I'm open to suggestions, but small fenders fit beautifully in the space between the seats and the undersides of the topdeck; The coamings and friction hold them in nicely, but does anybody have any other modifications?

Tom (tbeames65-at-cs.com)

[Guest]

Tom

I am interested in the same thing having capsized and inverted my daysailer (with modifed buoyancy design) in the middle of our (downunder) winter 3 weeks ago and being unable to right it after inversion. The problem seems to be twofold. The first is masthead floatation and the second is the adequacy and position of the buoyancy and where the boat will float in the water.

I should preface this by saying that I sailed my boat over 200 nm from Sydney to Eden in January in open ocean that follows the first third of the Sydney to Hobart race. During this time we had assumed that in the case of a capsize we (three men, combined weight 40+ stone) would be able to right the boat. My experience inverting the boat makes me doubt the wisdom of this assumption because of the ease with which the daysailer inverts. As daysailer derives much of its stability from its beam (ie form stability) it is extremely stable when inverted and therefore difficult to get upright.

Therefore the first concern I would have is that the boat doesn't invert. Once this happens you are stuffed.

This means ensuring that the original foam in the mast is intact or that a substitiue exists. Additional floatation in the form of buoyancy on head of the mainsail should also be considered.

The second concern is the ability of the crew to right the boat from a non inverted capsize. The position of the buoyancy seems to have an impact on this and I refer you to an article from the Daysailer Association's newsletter (edition#57 Summer 1975; http://forum.daysailer.org/fleet64dssfloatation.html) on this problem. The conclusion seems to be that the new buoyancy design is more difficult to right from a capsize and that 3 men may be required as oppsed to a suggested modification similar to your fender proposal that was easily righted by two teenagers.

As this was the first experience I have had capsizing a daysailer it would be great to hear the views of others with more capsize experience.

Adam




adam (amackie-at-gmp.usyd.edu.au)

[Guest]

Tom
I agree that righting an inverted DS 1 is a big problem because the flotation seat tanks are in the wrong place (too far out on the edges of the DS hull). Therefore when the DS is inverted you need enough weight to sink one of these tanks and at the same time lift the other side of the DS out of the water. Not an easy task unless you and crew weigh a bunch. So adding more flotation between the seats or anywhere near the edges of the DS will only make the problem a lot worse. This only adds more flotation to sink when righting the DS. So don't take that path.

There are some ways to help this problem. Adam mentioned mast flotation which will help and can even prevent a capsize beyond 90 degrees because the mast lever arm is long. Replacing the seat tanks with equivelant flotation in the middle of the boat will also help but is not permitted by the DS class rules. What I did to my DS 1256 is attach flotation to the underside of the cuddy because this flotation is centered and high enough to help you sink one of the seat tanks when righting the DS. I have tested this fix with good success. My son, Rick, (145lbs) alone, was able to rotate my inverted DS about 45 degrees at which time the cuddy flotation was out of the water and no longer helping. I (158lbs) was then able to reach the trunk opening and pull myself partially out of the water. This caused the DS to rotate another 45 degrees (mast now horizontal). So the first 90 degrees was accomplished by only one man on the board and one hanging on the hull. With Rick on the board I was able to let go of the DS and swim around to the other side to watch as Rick, alone, completed the remaining 90 degrees of rotation to the up-right position. I am planning to go out one more time to test and take pictures. I will write this all up in the DS Quarterly, perhaps the Spring 2002 issue. If you need details sooner give me a call (408)779-2296.

Good luck. Keep the ideas comming.

Chuck Wilson

Chuck Wilson (carolynchuck-at-hotcity.com)

[Guest]

Chuck

I'll be looking forward to your article as I'm sure many of us will.

The mention of the mast acting as a lever arm got me to thinking (and maybe you could test while your out there in the drink) how much of a lever arm would be needed for a 140 lb. teen or a 180 lb 'ol timer to right the DS? What could be used perhaps from DS gear? If an arm could be rigged up where would be best? These are things I might try myself too when I get back to the water. If there are any other experimenters out there lets hope we hear from them too. Until then, good luck!

MAK (Emak41-at-excite.com)

[Guest]

Rather than worry about how to right the Day sailer after capsize, why not concentrate on not capsizing in the first place? I sail my DS II singlehanded on Buzzards Bay (Massachusetts), and the bay is well known for it's afternoon seabreeze! The MOST important thing to remember when sailing any small boat is to ALWAYS keep the mainsheet in your hand, use the camcleat to hold the tension, but keep the line in your hand at all times! This way when a gust hits you can instantly release or at least ease the sheet preventing a capsize. I have added a reef to my mainsail and this helps to keep the boat up in a breeze as well, also the DS will sail quite well without the jib and this also reduces the capsizing risk. Finally, get a tiller extension ( hiking stick), the DS gains tremendous stability with the crew sitting on the side deck (I know....considerably easier on the DS II, DS III, and DS IV than the DS I due to wider or lack of cockpit coamings!) Due to employing these tactics, I have never come close to capsizing either my DS II or the Widgeon that I previously had.

Rod Johnson (rjohnson24-at-juno.com)

[Guest]

Rod

Daysailers do capsize!!!

It all depends on what you want to do with your sailing. I'm interested in sailing with my wife on weekends and coastal cruising in open boats. These two interests are pretty different and require totally different midsets. One is a gentle sail in protected waters and the other involves sailing in open ocean with the potential for things to get pretty nasty. Guess which mode of sailing saw me sitting on the inverted hull of my daysailer with my wife (5 months pregnant) laughing at my audacity in "promising" her that the daysailer "wasn't meant to capsise"?

My point is that no matter how experienced you are, it can happen to you and then the assumptions you made about self recovery etc are really put to the test. Therefore, I welcome every bit of info I can get from fellow daysailers who have capsized or who have experimented with different forms of floatation.

The next time I am 7 nautical miles from the coast I don't want to be making assumptions about whether I can get out of trouble, I need to know that I can.

If anyone is interested in how even a well prepared crew can find themselves in trouble they should take a look at the following UK web site http://www.imagic.demon.co.uk/openboat/capsize.html. It's an excellent post event reconstruction of a critical incident that makes sobering reading with respect to the confidences that we can have in our own ability to avoid trouble and to recover from it when it happens.

Adam



adam (amackie-at-gmp.usyd.edu.au)

[Guest]

Yes, I agree w/ Adam...Day Sailers do capsize even w/ the best crews in certain situations.

We ran a race last year in 20 knot winds w/ 30 knot gusts. Twelve Day Sailers left the docks. Three turned back before the start. Four swamped during the race but were able to sail in. Two capsized including the top 2 sailors in our region when huge gusts caught them off guard. Three boats finished the race. Granted, most weekend sailors would have never gone out in such winds, but in Texas as well as other parts of the country, bad weather can sneak up on you and you better know as much as you can about capsize recovery if you sail around here.

My best input for this discussion. Do not let the boat go turtle! Devise a plan. If you go over slowly, both crew should be able to climb on the centerboard and barely even get wet as they bring it back up. The boat will be swamped of course, but it can easily be towed in now, or bailed if you have a 1st gen DS1 ('57-61) or have modified your 2nd gen ('61-72) w/ extra floatation.

If you get back winded and go over on the leeward side. Both crew should swim to the mast and try their best to keep it from going down. If you can stop it, one person can hold the tip of the mast if they have a good life jacket on and the other can then swim to the centerboard. Once there, the second crew can join him on the centerboard and the boat can be righted. Just for reference, I was able to right a DS1 by myself in fairly calm waters and a rope tied to the chainplate allowing me to lean way back. I weigh 160 lbs.

I can write more later. There are some advantages to floatation on the edges as long as you don't go upside down w/ your boat, but I've got work to do now.

Kevin Clark
Dallas, TX

Kevin Clark (kevin.clark-at-usa.alcatel.com)

[Guest]

Racing Day Sailers may capsize, but unless an unforeseen storm hits, a "daysailing" Day Sailer should never capsize if sailed with proper care and caution. It is not a given that you will capsize, sure it may happen, but it is not going to under normal conditions. I was out this past weekend in 20-25knot winds, and never took more than a half-gallon of water over the side. If the Day Sailer was as prone to capsizing as it sounds to be from what I read on this web-site, then why has the boat always been sold as such a "family-friendly" design? Any boat will capsize if you want it to, but no boat needs to ever capsize. Sail conservatively, reef the main and/or don't use the jib if it feels too windy.
Most importantly, ALWAYS KEEP THE MAINSHEET IN YOUR HAND!
Ok, don't all fire at once (read the bottom of this message before exploding), I'm not a professional sailer, but why is everyone else capsizing, yet...in 13 years of sailing my small O'Days (8 years with a Widgeon, 6 with a Day Sailer) I have never Capsized! Oh, I've had gallons of water suddenly pour over the rail, but just release the mainsheet...and the boat comes back up. I still say that is better to work to prevent a capsize than to worry about what to do if it happens. Yes, plan what to do if you capsize, but do everything you can to ensure that the plan never needs to be used. An ounce of preparation is worth more than a pound of cure!

ps: O'Day used to have an option for their small boats, it amounted to a an uninflated balloon, mounted at the masthead, that would inflate to prevent the boat from turtling. It might still be available.....if someone could find a way to get it to deflate and re-arm after righting the boat. Perhaps a modified auto-inflate PFD could be used? Maybe a "belt-pack" inflatable PFD with a long string tied to the "rip-cord" and led down the mast to allow it to be triggered from the cockpit after capsize? I have also heard of people who fastened "Water Noodles" up under the side decks of their DS I to help in self-rescue.

Rod Johnson (rjohnson24-at-juno.com)

[Guest]

Before everyone aims their deck cannons at me, let me just put it this way......Yes, a Day Sailer CAN capsize, yes, we should all be prepared for that, but this constant dwelling on the subject is depressing!
I sail for FUN! If I wanted to be paranoid...I'd take up crossing highways on foot. When we get in our car to drive somewhere, how many of us stop to think about the chances of having an accident, do we dwell on that thought, maybe some people do, but it tends to make the trip very nerve-racking! I have a very real fear of capsizing, but instead of dwelling on it, I use that "fear" to help me prevent capsizing. Well, that and the thought of submerging $1000 worth of outboard! (OUCH!) So, I'm not trying to be critical of those who wish to be prepared for a capsize, all I'm saying is that it is not worth dwelling on it.......go ahead and be timid, sail carefully,but drop the idea that capsize is inevitable, it is not! Capsize is very avoidable, and will NEVER happen if the boat is sailed conservatively. In RACING the story is different, competition will lead to taking chances, in racing a capsize may very well be virtually inevitable sooner or later, that's life.
'nuf said!

Rod Johnson (rjohnson24-at-juno.com)

[Guest]

Rod Johnson (rjohnson24@juno.com) wrote:

Racing Day Sailers may capsize, but unless an unforeseen storm hits <snip>

Rod,

This exactly what I am talking about. Unforeseen storms do hit, and I want to be prepared for them. I think it is a good exercise to talk about this sort of thing even if a person never encounters it. I don't see it as depressing at all--I'm an engineer and this is just the way I think.

Also, where you sail has a lot to do w/ it. I've sailed in coastal breezes along the Gulf coast and they are generally steady, predictable, and when they change, it is slowly and predictably. Other parts of the country have similar winds. I've also sailed on the lakes of Oklahoma and Kansas, however, and let me tell you it is a night and day difference. In the summer, thunderstorms can suck your wind away one minute and then give it back all at once the very next minute and w/ a vengenance. In the spring and fall, cold fronts can cause the 5-10 knot southerly breezes to quickly switch to a 20-40 knot hang-on-for-your-life white-knuckle adventure. Sure, you can avoid sailing in these conditions most of the time, but sooner or later, you probably will get caught.

As for the "family boat" aspect of the Day Sailer, the Flying Scot advertises itself as the ultimate virtually untip-able family boat. At 19' w/ it's weighted centerboard it is indeed very stable, but shifty gusts have come through my local lake in Dallas capsizing 4-5 boats at once. I'm not trying to be negative or depressing, I'm just reporting the way it is in Dallas and other parts of the country. Your mileage may (and probably will) vary.

Kevin Clark
Dallas, TX

Kevin Clark (kevin.clark-at-usa.alcatel.com)