Motors, Motors, Motors...

[DigitalMechanic]

So, I have been contemplating for some time about doing a motor swap. My current motor is a Nissan NS3.5A 3.5HP 2 Stroke Single Cylinder Short Shaft Outboard.... Man that was a mouthful, lol. This motor has been great. The previous owner had a Gatorade bottle for a gas tank and no fuel filter... And it gobbled up whatever it was fed and just ran. When I got the motor.... My engineer brain kicked in and said... well this ain't right. So, I replaced the gas tank on it, and installed an inline filter... Maintenance... Gear oil, tune up, impeller, prop, etc etc etc. The motor has been really reliable, always starts right up. My complaint is that the motor only has one gear and it is forward. You can turn it around using the handle but there is no neutral or reverse. My other complaint, in which is the big one... is that it is short shaft. I live on the Saint Johns River in Jacksonville Florida which where I put in has a pretty swift current from the compression of the banks of the river (downtown), plus I have to motor past a couple of bridges prior to actually setting sail (can take some time). Also, the waves we get tend to make the motor rise out of the water and suck air, which I know is bad. Well, then there is the stink potters that blast you with their wakes as well... which also brings the motor out of the water to suck in air.

So, 3 things...

1. More HP to conquer the current
2. Long shaft to deal with waves/wakes
3. Neutral and reverse gear to deal with parking... Its crowded at the docks/ramps.

I found a guy that has a Mercury Marine 4 HP 2 Stroke Single Cylinder Long Shaft outboard. I like the idea of the 2 stroke because the actually gets more power than the new 4 strokes. If I understand correctly a 2 stroke 4 HP will get the equivalent of a 4 stroke 6 HP. Also, the 2 strokes are much lighter, so you get more power per the LB. So, for simplicity of maintenance and the aforementioned power gain vs weight etc. I think this is a good motor for me. My current motor is 29LBs, and this one is 44LBs. So I am stacking 15 extra LBs on the transom, but I believe it will help me get out to the "clear sailing" area quicker and safer. I feel like in a wavy scenario my current motor gets a little over heated when there is too much wave/wake action.

Doing some research, it appears that Tohatsu makes this motor (actually all small outboards since the 90's) for Mercury, Nissan, Evinrude, so I can probably count on the same reliable experience with the Mercury 4HP that I am used to with the Nissan 3.5HP, as it is basically the same Tohatsu derivative with a different piece of plastic and logo on it.

Thoughts? I know my situation is probably a little different than others dealing with fighting the swift St Johns current, and busy traffic. Do you think this motor is too heavy? I feel like I could literally get more sailing in if I could get put there faster. Also, I do not want to over heat and be stranded in the current with bridges that have trains crossing them at the water line

[Solarwinds]

It's July already and I've yet to resolve (commit) to a propulsion system on my boat other than the single paddle I've had to use on 3 of the last 4 times I've gone out.
I just can't see needing a 4 hp to power a 17 foot DS1 even with the Hudson's 1.5 mph current. I sailed on an Ensign that had a 2.3 hp Honda. On the rare occasions when it was used, we even towed another Ensign (or maybe it was even 2 Ensigns) back to the mooring. Larger than 2.3 hp 4 strokes are heavy; I can't see leaving it on the transom permanently and I also can't see moving it from the cuddy to the transom when I would need to use it. Besides, the cuddy already has stuff, stowing a motor in there is just more stuff.
Electric trolling motors would probably work, but there's the matter of the 50 lb battery in the cuddy and the possibility that water would swamp the battery box and, again, more stuff for the cuddy along with running the wiring back to the motor.
There's also the possibility of getting oars. 8 - 10 foot wooden oars are long and they'd probably have to be lashed on the foredeck. Not sure if that would work well. Carlisle makes an 8 - 10 ft oar that breaks down to 5'4" pieces that would probably work, but the cost is $ 350 for the pair. A little steep.
I guess it's either the Honda or maybe getting a used Suzuki 2 hp 2 stroke used.
Decisions, decisions.

[GreenLake]

Not needing to deal with currents, I'm happy with the minimalist trolling motor setup. And for many trips, when I'm out for a short time and becoming becalmed is not likely, I bring nothing but a set of paddles (those are, mildly speaking, fairly worthless except very close to the dock...).

For outboards, having proper neutral and reverse would seem essential. Having tried the other on a different boat, I find that it complicates the very thing that you probably need the outboard for, i.e. docking.

Now, I can't see why a 3.5HP isn't already overkill, unless your aim is to turn the DS into McGregor 17. For punching against current at a speed not much higher than you'd achieve with good wind under sail should require less, but would probably need a propeller pitched to the slower speed.

Altogether, I'm totally inflexible on the noise part, so if I ever came to the conclusion that I needed more than what a trolling motor provides, I'd source a real electric outboard.

[DigitalMechanic]

Yep, different situations for all of us. My main concern is the weight, but I imagine that any new 4 stroke (2-3.5hp) folks are putting on their boats weight the same. So, my question was really about the weight being an issue.

There is not an option of using a paddle where I launch from, that is definitely a death wish. The dock I take off from has a long slew of dock extending out into the river with (very big expensive) boats tied up for about 75-100 yards or so on the starboard side (when leaving the dock). Then on the port side maybe 50 yards or so, there is a train bridge that sits on the water. With a 2-3 kt current (when it is really going), depending on whether it is coming in or out, will either put you instantaneously into the docks, or with in a minute into the bridge. An outboard is critical. Quick maneuvers are critical. There is a blind spot for boats coming back in. Sometimes they just appears from around the dock. Wish I had a picture, it would really explain the scenario. Honestly, fighting the current at a comfortable noise level, my 3.5HP does pretty good to get out the center. However, once in the center, you still have the current, just a little more breathing room. Then you have to go under this little section of the train bridge that lifts (again fighting the current or hauling butt with it). I am trying to get further up the river where it is wider and past 2 bridges, and if the current is going out... Well one day I spent about an hour to get past the second bridge, and had to refill the 3.5 hp outboard with gas once to make it that far, say 1/2 - 3/4 of a mile.

As for docking the boat at the ramp, having only a forward gear is fine. I take her in sideways, and then cut the motor and turn the boat (Captain Ron style)... It works...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8alNxLjCBJc

However, when trying to park around other boats, where you are trying to get into a small spot between 2 boats, or else you are spending the entire afternoon trying to wait for a 2 boat clearance on the dock, you really want to be able to quickly reverse pulse the motor (vs spinning it 180 degrees) and do some neutral to keep the motor on while you make small adjustments. Docking around other boats with my current motor... Well it sucks. I have not seen another motor under 4 hp with forward/neutral/reverse that is this light (44lbs). That and it is a long shaft vs my short shaft which should help the motor drink less air when the waves are bigger or motor boats are leaving large wakes.

It is all about getting past that second bridge quickly and safely, from there I am just sailing. The motor relaxes with the rest of the crew until we come back in

[GreenLake]

The HP figure alone may be misleading, as the prop needs to be pitched to the speed through the water you are getting.

Unless you put your DS on a plane, that's going to be 5.4 knots max. Possibly slower than the prop was dimensioned for.

[carl10579]

Like I have said in a previous post --- I had an old Evenrude 9.5 sitting around for quite a long time and I am new to DS2's. I was worried about the shaft but not the power because I could control the power. But the little motor works great. 9.5 is not too powerful. (I think power becomes an issue with the DS1 and the shaft length becomes an issue with the DS3.) When I open it up there is no flexing at all on the transom and the boat just takes it. I've been out on the Hudson a couple of times now in the rough where the power was a real blessing. The prop never comes out of the water and cooling is not a problem. When under sail the motor is up and the handle points down and against the seat and does not interfere with the rudder. I ran a long gas line to a 6 gallon tank that is up in the front. The fuel line lays in the floor and passes through one of the Cuddy drain holes. Not that I'm saying I have the best set up. It was all just laying around, but it does work well. Now all I need to do is learn how to sail ---- correctly.

As far as prop pitch is concerned; As a kid growing up on a lake with power boats you learn all sorts of stuff. When a prop pitch is too flat the engine will want to over rev and when the pitch is to steep the engine will lug. The 9.5 actually seems to lug just a little when wide open. I think that's fine.

Carl

[SUNBIRD]

I don't think that 44# is going to be that much of a problem, I would say that I'm very happy with my 2001 JOHNSON 4HP 2-stroke long-shaft and it meets all but one of your wants, only thing it doesn't have is geared reverse (F/N only). I was going to mention that my outboard only weighs about 36-38# (depends on which set of specs you read, but I'd believe the 38# as most accurate for the long-shaft), or 5-8 pounds less than the MERC 4hp. Then I remembered..... I also keep my 3-gallon gas tank in the stern while running, so that pretty much in total, equals the weight of that Merc.
Long-shaft is definitely better! keeps prop in water In waves. F-N-R shift is nice, I miss the geared reverse that we had on the Johnson 4DLX on our old CAL 21, but don't miss the 53# weight of that engine.
I used to have a 1992 2.3 HP JOHNSON on my DS II, it was a short-shaft which worked, but as you found out... was not ideal. This was basically the same as your 3.5 hp, just detuned a bit. Good motor, but I tried both the original plastic prop and the optional aluminum prop (different pitch and diameter) but neither let the motor attain the proper RPM given the load of the DS II. To compare, I once used a 1984 2hp Johnson (probably closer to 1.5 HP) and that motor pushed the boat better, only thing I can figure is that the prop was better suited (plastic 3-blade weedless). This was the older J/E 2hp, 24# single-cylinder, water-cooled and pure mini-Johnson including vibration damping rubber collars around the steering pivot. There are a lot of those old 2hp J/E outboards out there, a few have been modified with a 5" shaft extension. Great outboard, but no gearshift! I could have been alright with a 2-3 HP outboard, but bought the 4 hp for it's better features, especially the long-shaft.

I'd go for that Merc 4hp! You may rarely use the full power of 4hp, but the other features (full gearshift and long-shaft) make it worth it (I would have bought a 3 HP Merc, same as your 3.5 Tohatsu, but wanted the better vibration damping, long-shaft and ability to hook up a remote tank that the Johnson 4 had.) My Johnson 4 has a built-in tank, plus can hook up to a remote tank. As I say, that Merc 4hp sounds like a good deal.

[DigitalMechanic]

Yep. The guy who had it was located in Ocala, and my Dad lives there. So I had him drop it off at my Dad's house on Saturday. My cousin went to some concert in Tampa on Saturday, so he picked it up from my Dad's and brought it to my house on his way back to Jacksonville. I Paid $425 for it, and it is a nice looking motor. I went to run it after I swapped it out on the boat for the other Nissan motor, and it ran for a few minutes and it staled out. Then I could not get it to start again. After several minutes of in depth technical analysis (scratching head), I noticed the motor had a petcock on it that was closed... duh!!! Opened it up and fuel went straight to the carb and it started right up again. Even though it is a 2 stroke it is amazingly quieter than the 90's Nissan 2 stroke. The motor is definitely larger/bulkier but did not really feel much heavier than the Nissan.

Now I just have to find time to take the boat out. Vacationing out of town and weekend events... Not conducive for sailing

[welderr]

Does anyone have any experience with a British Seagull engine on a DS. They are just really neat looking and seem to have a fairly long shaft. I have an old Sears / Eska 3.5 which Has pushed my little 12 foot aluminum rowboat fine for years and has a fairly long shaft. Those Seagulls just look cool

[KingsTransom]

How much outboard is too much? The first thing that comes to mind is the weight since, most of the time (hopefully), the motor is tilted up out of the way. A friend has offered a free 2-cycle outboard, probably 1980s vintage. I've not seen it and know nothing about it yet. For reference, a new Honda 2.3 hp 4-cycle is 31 lbs.

The only hint I see in literature is in the Cape Cod Shipbuilding Daysailer Parts Price Sheet, which lists an outboard bracket for 2-3 hp outboard. I'll be in Lake Michigan where, if you feel a current, you're probably too close to shore.

[talbot]

I think the weight is an issue. Our 2HP Honda (29lbs, predecessor to the 2.3) can push us at up to 5kt. Not quite hull speed, but (so far) fast enough to get us out of trouble. The lack of neutral is a real hassle, but the newer 2.3 has a centrifugal clutch.

You might not need reverse for a boat and motor this small. If you move slowly into a tight space, I think you could control your speed by just powering down until the clutch cuts out. You might have to manually fend off some boats or docks. We acquired a Precision 21 this summer with a 5hp Honda. I definitely like knowing I have reverse if I find myself in bind, but the 1-ton Precision is more than three times as heavy as our DS. In normal navigation around the marina, I only use reverse for a few seconds backing out of the slip.

Anyway, for day sailing, I vote for the lighter weight at the expense of a more robust transmission. I think the motor hanging far aft and to one side does affect the boat performance.

[jeadstx]

Although the original O'Day specs recommended 3 to 7hp, I think the DS doesn't need anything over 4hp maximum. I use a 2.5hp Lehr propane motor and like many small motors does not have a reverse. When using a slip, usually wind is not a problem. I bring the boat in slow and usually put the motor in neutral when near the slip and use my rudder to turn into the slip allowing momentum to bring me in. My gaff pole is usually enough to stop the boat and grab a line. To get out of the slip, I usually just push out till the boat can go forward. Although I sometimes turn the head for reverse to get out of a slip, switch to neutral turn the head and go forward when aimed in the right direction. I use the rudder for steering whenever possible. Most of my maneuvering with a motor is a low throttle speeds.

When I race, I usually leave the motor at home to keep the weight off the stern. Too heavy of a motor in the stern can adversely affect the performance of the DS. Also when I race I try to find a helmsman lighter than me since I noticed my boat sails bad with me in the stern (I weigh about 350). My weight in the stern and my boat is not competitive, my weight forward and someone lighter at helm and my boat can be competitive. My observation, if you use a motor bigger and heavier than you need hanging off the stern, your boat will sail like mine with me at the helm with the stern too low in the water and the boat not balanced properly. When I go out without a motor, my auxiliary power are oars. They work well for getting in and out of docks. I store the oars inside the cockpit along the bench seats.

John

[Sailor Chlud]

I have a 2006 Mercury 4hp longshaft that is 4 stroke. It is a dream, with the F-N-R. In Jersey, we do have some swift running currents - canals, train bridges, drawbridges, and with this motor I never need worry about timing the tide, or judging the current. We just push through and go. However, since I only use it for launching and close quarters manoevering, I only use the interior tank, and bring a separate 1 gallon auxiliary fuel tank that I keep in the stern with it. My DSI does not seem to notice the weight at all. I feel this is an ideal motor for the DS I. Of course, backing up with it in a fixed position, and the rudder doing the steering is not so easy - very hard to back with this boat unless i remove the rudder and steer with the motor.

[DigitalMechanic]

I have a 2006 Mercury 4hp longshaft that is 4 stroke. It is a dream, with the F-N-R. In Jersey, we do have some swift running currents - canals, train bridges, drawbridges, and with this motor I never need worry about timing the tide, or judging the current. We just push through and go. However, since I only use it for launching and close quarters manoevering, I only use the interior tank, and bring a separate 1 gallon auxiliary fuel tank that I keep in the stern with it. My DSI does not seem to notice the weight at all. I feel this is an ideal motor for the DS I. Of course, backing up with it in a fixed position, and the rudder doing the steering is not so easy - very hard to back with this boat unless i remove the rudder and steer with the motor.

Dido. Exactly my experience. I recently picked up a 2 stroke Mercury 4hp for the long shaft and neutral/reverse functions. On the St. Johns river here in downtown Jacksonville, FL the river goes from being 2 miles wide to about 1/4 mile in nearly an instant. None the less, the current is bad there, and so is the traffic. You literally come immediately off the docks and there is a train bridge that runs the surface of the water line that you often have to fight the current to steer clear of. Conversely, there is a marina on the other side that juts out with a lot of very big expensive looking boats that you must drive past to get to the ramp. If the current is going out, it will try and pull you into the marina docks (so I keep my insurance premium current, lol). This type of situation is where the 4hp with extra bells and whistles becomes useful. There is no sailing until you clear this area of calamity, lol. Extra power is nice to have and allows us put the sails up quicker when there is a bad current. I literally spent 45 minutes one day trying to motor 1/2 mile against the current with my 3.5 hp. I even had to refill the gas tank on the water.

My motor might weigh a little less (40lbs) than the 4 stroke, but I really did not notice a big difference with the extra 10lbs on the transom (vs my 30lb 3.5hp). I use the internal tank as well and keep a 1.25 gallon no spill jug aboard. Last time I went out I somehow got the motor stuck where the shaft would not rotate, so I was stuck with the rudder only. Don't laugh... okay laugh.... I drove the boat backwards into the dock. It was really difficult to turn with just the rudder. When I previously used the smaller 3.5 hp motor, I always turned the boat using both the rudder and motor. It can make a fairly sharp turn with both working in your favor. I get a little more nervous about doing that with the 4 hp because the throttle is at the end of the handle. Probably part of what got me in trouble with reversing into the dock. But that is just a learning curve. Next time I will grab further up the handle to steer

Welcome to the "Current Fighting 4 hp Club", lol.

[KingsTransom]

I picked up the motor today. It is a 1980-ish Mercury 4.5. It weighs in at 58 lbs and the transom to prop center length is 23".
I don't see a model number on it. I would assume "Mercury 4.5" does not uniquely describe the motor since it was probably made over many years and in different configurations, like 4-stroke vs. 2. Any idea where I might get a pdf of the manual?

The motor brackets on my DS2 are sand-cast aluminum made by Michigan Wheel Co. They are a two-part, left & right set with only 525L and 525R for ID numbers and a rather odd wood breadboard mounting panel between. I found a site with a 1970 Michigan Propellers Outboard catalog with brackets having the same part number, rated up to 10 hp. While I thought a lighter motor would be better, and I may at some point buy a lighter motor, this is a bird in the hand for a price that can't be beat. I'll just have to see how it sails with 58 lbs before I can justify replacing it with a lighter motor.