Basic Painting Questions

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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby marcusg » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:41 am

I'd never considered it might be a space for a battery. The PO did seem to have added quite a number of his own "touches," so that's a possibility. I don't know if you had time to watch the video I posted of it, but the cavity actually has a channel that runs all the way to the transom, where there is a drain hole (one of the ones that need to be plugged up with a rubber stopper, like the ones above it from the bilge.) So...I don't know what the heck, or when the heck, it was installed. I find it unlikely that the factory designed and installed this sketchy looking hole, but I find it just as unlikely that the PO designed the entire thing around a cavity that runs to the back of his boat and also installed his own drain hole perfectly centered under the bilge drain holes. From what few pictures of the Sailstar I can find online, it looks like most boats don't have this cavity, and instead have the raised piece that the mast sits on go all the way back to the centerboard, whereas mine seems like it was cut midway in order to leave space for this cavity.

In the video I also show what may be the fiberglass sheathing around what maybe should be a stringer but is just...empty. Shiver...

Now that you mention it, I far prefer to just glass over the whole thing, and maybe it's drain hole in the back too, since otherwise there's a chance the drain could fail and I'd never know because water wouldn't bubble up into the cabin like that time wife and I didn't know that hole needed a plug. So, to fiberglass it, I'd cut into the laminate on all sides at an obtuse angle, and then laminate some equaivalent-thickness plywood (on both sides?) and thixo/gelmagic it in, and also overlap fiberglass from my patch onto what I'm patchign onto? And then for the transom hole, same thing but with a little circular piece of wood, like I did for my viewing-port hole I made earlier?
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby GreenLake » Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:37 pm

Sorry, I took some stuff as self-evident.

First, the drain hole in the back is factory-installed. It is essential. All boats (any design I know) with this kind of double hull have it, because the bilge can never be guaranteed to be water tight - even if it should be (kept) dry. You do need a way to drain it.

second, the foam you show in your video appears to have blocks of styrofoam as part of that. You do want to be able to air that out, as that stuff does get waterlogged and very heavy (and condensation is enough). (Many DS2 owners, with a similar configuration have changed their foam to pool noodles, which are closed cell and do not absorb water. (If you have a bow tank, that isn't open to your bilge, you may need to check that one).

Third, the two "channels" are absolutely what you expect: they are there for draining the bilge. So, definitely, you do not want to remove the drain hole. (But you should have a routine that checks that it is plugged before launch).

Fourth, I did watch your video but didn't spot what you thought might be an empty stringer. You may have to get some video editing software and add an arrow or circle to point it out. A stringer would have been wood. If wood disappears w/o trace, you know the bilge must have maintained a moist (and warm) atmosphere, for it to rot completely. If so, definitely better to have a way to ventilate the space.

Fifth, have you given thoughts on how you would glass over that large an opening with a material (fiberglass) that wouldn't stay flat on its own until it cures?

Finally, some more speculation: there are thee possible supports that might have been added to the boat. Some boats (in the DS family) have longitudinal stringers that support the hull aft of the CB to keep it from flexing. It's possible that a similar reinforcement might have been added under the cockpit floor. On boats that do not have a raised floor, there are cross-wise supports (thwarts) to help keep the CB trunk vertical, but with a raised floor, I'd expect the floor will easily assume that task, with the floor opening for the CB trunk effectively constraining all sideways motion of the CB trunk. Finally, I don't know whether the expanding foam was original, or whether some PO did that to keep the flotation foam blocks secured. There may have been a bit of fiberglass intended to narrow the opening enough to retain the foam. Again, I failed to see where you saw it, but perhaps you might form some idea.
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby marcusg » Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:27 am

I figured that covering the battery-hole or whatever would mean laminating a piece of plywood and then beveling it somehow (and beveling the laminate on the boat it fits onto) and then glueing it with gelmagic. Would that be the "right" way?

Either way, I decided to just patch this one up for now, as my time/patience capital for further repairs is at it's limit. I've got a week left to prepare for painting/sealing wood/gelcoating the floor and I still have a bunch of sanding/cleaning to do on the boat. I'll just mentally mark the wood frame on this hole this as something I'll need to pay attention to and probably replace in the long term, along with the rebar. I fiberglassed it last night and will re-contour the edges with 3m filler today. Fiberglassing over edges on that wood was a pain - lots of air bubbles. I've never used transfer tape but I struggle to picture how that would've helped either, as there was nothing to really "tape off" to (if thats how it works) since there was just foam below...
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby GreenLake » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:26 pm

Marcus, I think your solution of simply prioritizing the work is very sound. Some of the people I've sailed with are nearly extremist in the way they put function over beauty on their boats (big and small). Making sure their boats are well founded and sail well is more important to them than whether the hull sports half a dozen patches of different paint with obvious repairs visible. (Below the waterline, the paint job is functional - whether for speed or antifouling - and would be maintained assiduously).

Not only are they rationing their work and expense that way, but, perhaps more importantly, they get back to sailing sooner.

When you put fiberglass onto a backing to transfer it, I would think that you don't pull that off until the epoxy has gelled, so you are not relying on the weak adhesion of liquid epoxy (although it might work on some firm surface because of vacuum). Obviously, the sooner you can pull off the backing, the sooner you can add the next layer, but as long as the epoxy is still "green", you can still add a layer and get a chemical bond.

However, if the issue is that you have a firm substrate, but oddly contoured, leaving the tape on can help keeping the edges from lifting up.
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby marcusg » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:53 pm

Yeah well, if I had another four months in the heated shop that would be one thing. But between learning in the shortcomings of my materials and my own mistakes everything‘s taking longer of course than expected. And when there’s so many steps along the way, when I’m trying to crush things and too small an amount of time I feel like I’m gypping myself and the work by trying to quick and get it done.

I’ll have to try out the transfer paper sometime, because fiberglass in a flat surfaces is one thing but doing right angles I found to be extremely difficult. I ended up adding 3M high strength filler to this hatch opening today, both to where the contours meet the floor and to the actual wood itself, as the fiberglass bondWasn’t that great in a number of places. This might’ve been because I ran out of acetone as a solvent prewash and instead used mineral spirits, which I think has a higher drying time. Actually, I don’t even know if I should be using solvents like that on wood before I epoxy it it doesn’t seem to dry as fast as on fiberglass or gel coat.What do you do?

I think my shop time will be starting in another few days and I’ve set varying degrees of expectations for myself, the simplest being to simply paint the top sides and deck. If I get to gel coating the floor and ceiling and painting the furniture and Cudi that would be great but we’ll see.
Last edited by marcusg on Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby marcusg » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:55 pm

Just realized it might sound weird to say I need to shop time when I’m using 3M filler which has a minimum temperature of 60°F. That’s because we got an Indian summer for a week here in Wisconsin where it’s been 70° every day. That ends tonight, and back to 20°To40°
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby GreenLake » Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:12 pm

Good luck in getting everything done.

My own skills with woodworking, fiberglass, and other materials developed slowly over time (and while I'm fairly confident, I see some people tackling projects that I would be afraid I'd run out of steam before completing them). So, don't stress out if you don't get everything to perfection. If your boat is in decent shape to sail next season, chalk that up as a win.

Acetone evaporates so quickly that I wouldn't worry about residues when using it as solvent. That's totally different from mineral spirits (especially the "low odor" kind). You might be right that you'd need to wait much longer. Different solvents also deal differently with the kinds of impurities you'd like to remove before applying epoxy: grease, wax, etc. You need to read carefully which is recommended for what.

Also, if your PO used silicone caulking anywhere on your boat, there's a chance that you still have areas contaminated by it. It's nearly impossible to clean up (that's why silicone caulk has no place on any boat). You would need to search for the proper technique if you suspect it as an issue (will affect paint as well).
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby marcusg » Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:46 pm

RE: the silicone, I sanded the crap out of those surfaces (just the juncture of bottom of the coaming and the side deck) so from what I read I should be fine. But good to know.

Guess I'll get myself a bigger bucket of acetone, as that was working great before.

Thanks for the encouragement re: imperfection. Yeah, it's easy to turn this into a feat of human engineering rather than a way to simply support my actual hobby of sailing. Although I do like the learning curve and figuring all this stuff out. Already, I'm so much further than I was months ago; with the basics of fiberglassing/fairing/glueing/filling I'm starting to make up my own ideas on how to tackle certain problems.

Since the glass tape I got off amazon is such crap, I'm probably gonna go ahead and refill my stock of fiberglass cloth. I have 4 and 6 oz (plus some CSM) but I realized now, once I went to order more, that I never really asked what is standard issue for DS repairs. Looking online, I found people saying big patches need at least a few multiple layers of 6 (which is what I did for that hole in the hull.) However, I really like the absorption and smoothness of the 4 oz. (a surfboard products from Amazon called Phix Doctor) so I'd like to use that, if possible, to cover the tops of my coamings and other repairs that are less load bearing. Is 4 oz kosher?
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby GreenLake » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:45 pm

You might read up a bit on the different types of fiberglass. There's biaxial, for example, woven rovings and even epoxy-compatible mat (the standard stuff is not, as it uses a binder that is expected to dissolve in polyester).

I keep some mat, some heavier cloth and a very light cloth in stock in my workshop and call it a day. I haven't made the kinds of repairs where I think I'd benefit from biaxial or woven rovings.

The very light cloth I use mainly for a light sheath, for example to make a (sealed wood) surface scratch resistant. One use for it was to cut strips off of it to wrap around the bamboo spinnaker pole I put together many seasons ago - when I was too cheap to purchase a ready-made aluminum one, or even a "kit". The bamboo, even when sealed on the outside, began to show signs of cracking. After wrapping the strips diagonally like a bandage, the pole has been absolutely stable and served me for so long, I need to back in the forum to find out how many years ago I built it.

I mostly use the heavier cloth. Sometimes alternating with mat - the mat is easier to conform and you can "feather" it a bit when applying it, both reasons for me to sometimes make it the inner layer against a rough surface. Could my fiberglass jobs be improved. Probably. Does it matter - probably not: much of the work I've done isn't all that critical in strength or weight. Would I do some stuff differently? Probably, for example, if I built another rudder, I now know to beef it up in certain ways. And certainly if I wanted to build one to last me for an expedition sail.
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby Fly4rfun » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:52 pm

I am getting ready to put 'Sail Aweigh' in the shop for a repair and repaint. I think i have lucked out as i have not found much damage to the hull or deck.

My question is, do i want to use a gloss finish or semi gloss or satin finish on the topside paint, reason is will i get to much glare off a gloss finish? recommendation to the cabin floor, white or a grey (light or dark) my intention is to spray the paint on. have the equipment and skill, (did some body work for a living prior to Nursing)

G
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby tomodda » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:11 am

Gary: If you mean topside as in the deck, flat / satin finish for sure! Enough glare on the water as it is. Inside the cockpit is up to you, mine is Grey. But that's just because I scored some free Petit paint (the good stuff). Honestly, rustoleum would have been fine, any color but fry-my-feet black. I like Grey interior as hides dirt and doesn't distract me. My decks are tan colored, again personal choice to avoid glare. I suppose white is more traditional.

Now if you mean topsides as in what to paint the hull above the waterline but below the rubrail, High Gloss of course! You want to be able to see your face in the hull, the shinier the better. Extra points for blinding the motor-boaters with your shine. If you can signal passing airplanes while heeled, then you're my god! Of course, it's a pain in the ass to maintain and you'll curse every time you hit anything and mar the finish. But that's half the fun - continuous maintenance! Something boaty to do when there's no wind! Seriously, I do indeed like a gloss finish and for a 17' boat it's not too hard to keep in good shape. Your tolerance for paint refinishing may vary... A flat-finish hull with tons of skid marks from hitting the dock goes JUST as fast as a boat-show level of finish. Up to you!
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby Fly4rfun » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:46 am

Thanks tom,

it will be gloss below the rub rail for sure. and satin on the deck.
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby GreenLake » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:47 am

I've avoided gloss everywhere, because it shows more imperfections (even places where your hull may not be fair). Now, when you paint your CB, make sure it's day-glo orange (in case you capsize :) ).

There's a boat here with marine life painted below the waterline: exposed when heeled. Neat idea, but works better for boats not sailed flat.
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby Fly4rfun » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:41 am

that would be a great idea, or paint HELP on it in orange
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Re: Basic Painting Questions

Postby GreenLake » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:33 am

Now, there you go :)
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