DS1 - Centerboard Issue

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DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby LGsailer » Tue May 26, 2020 9:41 am

Hello all - got the "new to me" 66 DS1 out on the water this weekend for the first time - wow! I can see why there is such a great following of these boats, what a fun time!

Everything went great except for the centerboard. First attempt at launching from the boat ramp we noticed the centerboard was dropping freely and catching on the lake bottom even with the handle up. We ended up using a strap to manually hold the centerboard up until in deeper water. Further investigation shows that the centerboard handle does nothing, as the centerboard is always down no matter the position of the handle. The handle is quite difficult to turn as well, I know there are bolts to adjust that tensions but doing so has no effect on the actual centerboard.

From my limited understanding of these centerboards there is just a square hole that the lever goes through to set the board up or down. Best guess is that square hole has been rounded off by improper use from the previous owner so the board now drops freely. Thoughts? Any ideas on what else the problem could be? The previous owner did say he upgraded the centerboard with D&R a few years back - maybe improper install?

Additionally (although possibly unrelated) when the centerboard is down it bangs around in the trunk pretty aggressively, especially when some waves come in. I can see the trunk flexing as it it banged against by the centerboard top - is that normal?

When I get the chance I will try to remove the handle when the boat is on the trailer to inspect the centerboard connection, hopefully I am wrong in my thinking and don't need to shell out for a new board. Thanks in advance.
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby tomodda » Tue May 26, 2020 11:37 am

Glad you had a fun sail! Despite the "despites"......

Sounds to me like the CB square hole got damaged. Handle is definitely not connected at all. Good news is you can fix/rebuild it, bad news is you''ll have to pull your CB out. Not to hard to do, but you'll have to get the boat off the trailer on land.. fun! Do some forum poking around and you'll see how others have run into the same problem and have handled their CB.

Best,

Tom
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby GreenLake » Tue May 26, 2020 11:53 am

If you launch in very shallow water / beach you can tip the boat sideways (careen) by pulling on a halyard. With something heavy to hold the mast down (or a helper) you can then unscrew the handle and pull the CB out. Not sure if the hole for the handle leaks if the boat is just sitting (not moving) and empty, but plugging it, even with a cloth should allow you to float it again for retrieval so you can take boat and CB home to work on. (Or you can do the same operation on the hard in your backyard).

Once the CB is out, the issue should be apparent. If the CB pivot is damaged (rounded off) you can get a new one from DR marine. If the brass insert (square hole) in the CB is rounded, you may be able to shim it using bronze (I've used a hammered down bronze washer, but my hole was not fully round). It's also possible to get SS square tubing from specialty metal suppliers that has the right dimension to fit the CB pivot. You just need about 1" or so. However, using SS does add the issue of dissimilar metals (although SS should be relatively passive). In that case you may have to file away a good portion of the brass inset to allow for the thickness of the tube walls. Probably best approach if your hole is the one that's fully round.

Be sure to position the handle at 90 degrees to the CB or you may not be able to "lock" it in position when raised.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby LGsailer » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:19 am

Hello again, we were able to get the centerboard out and now have some new questions, wanted to follow up here and see the thoughts from the forum. I tried some searching for "centerboard repair" but I guess that was too general of a term so thank you in advance for responding here.

Pictures for reference:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zCgIMRwtrYN2v8BqeANeCYTHmXtHz7Oe?usp=sharing

So as you can see, the centerboard slot is very rounded off. So much in fact that the circular part of the handle is able to fit into the hole in the board! However the metal plate that is embedded into the centerboard is OK and actually has very little slop in it when the handle is attached (see Port_2 photo). However since this centerboard was engineered so that the plate was on the port side, furthest form the handle, all it takes is 1/4" of movement and the embedded plate slips off the square part of the handle, thus killing the functionality of the handle (see Handle_2 photo where I show the only place the handle and plate touch). Seems to me that it would have been better to have the plate on the starboard "handle" side since there would no chance to slip off into the circular pivot section - but that is neither here nor there.

Any thoughts on how to fix this or how to keep the handle engaged on the 1/4" plate? This centerboard was supposedly upgraded by Rudy over at D & R within the past 4 years - so I will be calling him for advice as well.

Other quick notes:
-the centerboard seems to be heavier than 25 lbs as lited online... I didn't have a scale readily available to test it but I wonder if it is water logged? Seems like a heck of a lot of weight for one small handle/pivot point.
-is there some possibility that the centerboard trunk has be "warped" or expanded too wide thus making the alignment funky? I don't even know how that could happen.

Thanks in advance, I know this is a long one.
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:52 pm

My first observation is the severe cracking around the CB support on the port side. That looks like it could be structural, which might mean that the connection between the embedded plate and the CB might be questionable. Nothing for it, but grinding off the gelcoat and having a look at the laminate underneath. It may be necessary to rebuild the anchoring for the plate inside the CB. Alternatively, get a new CB.

A bit of banging (in just the right conditions) may be OK for a CB, but rereading your first post, I am concerned that the amount of flexing required is perhaps related to the damage we see here. (If you find that the CB trunk opening is way too wide for your CB, you could mount some strips of high density PE (used for cutting boards for example) to narrow the opening. HDPE tends to glide well.

If you can get the round part of the pin drilled and tapped, you could change provide a better anchor on the Port side (and prevent the CB from sliding off the pivot). A PO did that on my boat and the port side of the CB trunk now looks like this:
1042

My best understanding of the DS1 CB support is that the CB does 'wedge' itself into the trunk. It is clear from what people have done to upgrade their boats that the flexing of the CB trunk walls may be excessive: adding additional layers of fiberglass on the outside of the trunk to get that under control is something that many people seem to have done.

PS: multi-word searchers don't tend to work well with the internal search. Use an external search engine with "site:forum.daysailer.org" (no spaces) as part of your search expression.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby jalmeida51 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:00 pm

I replaced my c/b and handle last September. I bought the c/b and handle from Rudy at D&R. The c/b is heavier then the original c/b. Which is not class legal but I could care less. The added ballast is great.

Like you I had a hard time retracting the c/b with the handle. I setup a 3 to 1 purchase from the mast compression post to the c/b handle with a jam cleat on the wooden seat. No Problem now.

My Daysailer 1 was built in 1981 by Rebel. My old handle was worn on the square peg and c/b square hole was worn causing the board to drop about 8inches with the handle up. But the handle still worked. My old handle did not have the round shaft after the the square peg. Rudy told me to make sure the new handle matched the old handle and if I needed cut off the round shaft. To match it up with the old handle shaft length. The c/b on my boat wedges between the sides of c/b trunk. It is a tight fit in the trunk. The c/b does not bang around in the trunk. This is a wag (wild ass guess ) on my part if the p.o. did not match shaft lengths on the handle and if he replaced the handle this would cause the c/b bidding up and damaging the c/b. There seems to be no wear on the square peg so it might be a fairly new handle. If you could look up on the inside of your c/b trunk and see if there is a bushing for the round peg to fit into?

My new c/b is faired to the hull no droop. My old c/b has far less damage than yours and if you want it's yours just pay shipping. Call Rudy and talk to him about your problem. He knows a lot about these boats. Good luck, John
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby LGsailer » Mon Jul 20, 2020 12:00 pm

Thanks everyone for the responses, another update for you after a good week of repair and sailing.

Pictures here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zCgIMRwtrYN2v8BqeANeCYTHmXtHz7Oe?usp=sharing

As you can see in the picture titled "repair" we were able to re-square the circular hole in the CB. We used Marine RX Epoxy from West Marine - amazing stuff! It works like putty and with the help of a form it squared the hole right up. We now have a good purchase on the handle / CB connection.

However like all scenarios with boats, it gets deeper. While the CB repair was hardening we installed the handle in the trunk with the gasket/hardware and then looked under the boat. We wanted to get a sense of what % of the square handle was in the trunk and contacting the CB when it was installed. What did we find? Take a look a the picture called "pivot" - the handle is too short and does not contact the other side of the trunk, which means the starboard side takes all the weight of the CB pivot! This certainly cannot help the slipping issue from my earlier update, since that bronze reinforced plate in the CB is on the port side of the board, it is in prime location to slip off the square side of the handle onto the circle section (see slip off area notation in image). Its only about 1/4 to 1/8 of an inch that bronze contacts bronze! (Goodness how I wish the plate was on the starboard side...)

Anyways we added some spacing washers to help push the CB towards the square section of the handle and hopefully that helps for now. Without the metal to metal contact I doubt even the Marine RX will be strong enough to not get rounded off again. Greenlake I would really like to see some detailed photos of your handle and how the whole "bolt through the trunk" scenario is working on your boat. Any thoughts are welcome about how to fix the handle issue, longer handle, etc. Not sure how this happened from P/O. Too bad the CB is the one part you can't easily inspect when buying a boat on a trailer!
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:10 pm

@LGSailer: Unfortunately, I do not have any pictures from the few times I've taken out my CB (and I'm not really proposing to dismount it just for that purpose) :shock: :shock: .

You are absolutely correct that the Marine Tex lacks the strength to transmit the CB handle force.

In diagnosing your situation further, it would be interesting to find out whether the real issue is that the CB trunk is too wide, or that the CB handle is too short, or perhaps mounted too far to SB. (Perhaps because of too thick a gasket?).

To that end, I've added some dimensions to your picture.

CB-pin.JPG
"contact" with dimensions
CB-pin.JPG (30 KiB) Viewed 1506 times


I know from my attempts at squaring the hole that the square section is 3/4" at its widest (it's slightly tapered). If I take that as known, I can "measure" the other dimensions in your picture. I have a spare gasket sitting around and that came in at 3/16". From your photo it looks like yours is 5/16". (I may be off a bit, so it's worth confirming). From the "pivot" photo, it looks like at least 1/8" of the square section is buried in the SB CB trunk wall. You could go to a thinner gasket and that would alleviate part of the problem.

CB-pin2.jpg
"pivot" with dimensions
CB-pin2.jpg (30.28 KiB) Viewed 1506 times


That picture confirms the 1/8" discrepancy. (You may want to double check these measurements using the real object).

However, it seems that the CB trunk is also too wide at that location. Adding just 1/8 does not allow the outer rounded section to fully insert on the other side.

However, what we've seen from the tolerances on some of these boats, having the dimension off by even 3/16" or 1/4" wouldn't really be that surprising. In use, the walls also flex noticeably. That's the reason for the retrofit like it was done on my boat.

As far as I can tell, they took the pin, milled flat the end and drilled and tapped it for the largest bolt that would fit the existing diameter of the (outer) rounded section. Then they drilled the support on the port wall to fit the bolt. When the CB is mounted, the bolt is inserted with a large washer and another gasket. The bolt is then tightened enough so the gasket seals. This flexes the P wall of the CB trunk inward, so the rounded section rests in the mount and is actually supported as intended, and also narrows the trunk so the CB cannot slide off the square section of the pin.

The milling and tapping is something for a local machine shop - shouldn't be expensive. Drilling the support on the P side is something you'd have to do yourself, unless you find a show willing to do that for you (shouldn't be too hard, really, just be sure you drill at the right location - the hole can be slightly oversized, the CB pin should be supported by the rounded outer section, not by the bolt). The bolt can be made long enough to allow a good sized gasket on the P side. But you might want to also check the dimension of the SB gasket.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby jalmeida51 » Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:14 pm

MyDaysailer1 the old handle did not have the round peg, it's a 1981 built by Rebel. When I replaced the c/b and handle Rudy of D&R told me to make sure the length of the square peg was the same as the old handle. If the old handle didn't have the round peg, saw it off on the new handle. The c/b on my boat is a tight fit in the c/b trunk. The reason for this is to act like a wedge due to the c/b is only supported on the starboard side of the trunk. Rudy told me he got the new handle from Cape Cod Shipbuilding and they use both sides of the trunk to support the C/b.

I still have the old handle and the square peg is worn. I will mail it to you and you can see if it fits your boat without the round peg. That way it will eliminate the length of the shaft. PM me with your address if you want my old handle. John
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:16 pm

Jim, good to know about the design change. If I understand what you are writing the new handle is the one with a longer pin and the old-style pin should only be as long as a square section?

However, @LGRSailer's trunk does appear to have the opposite side recess for the rounded tip. If so, there's something wrong if the pin doesn't fully reach across. At least it doesn't look like it's a case of a too-long pin pushing the P side trunk wall out. (@LGSailer will have to let us know whether the recess is as deep as it would need to be to contain that rounded section - based on his pictures, there appears to be a circular opening, but it's not possible to see how deep it is.)
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby jalmeida51 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:44 am

GL I was looking at the picture of the inside of the c/b trunk. Do you think the recess hole on the portside was caused by the round pin banging the side of the c/b trunk? You can see the round pin has damage. The handle I bought from Rudy was machined well and the end was tapered. The owner said the c/b was banging around a lot. The c/b being just under 4 ft. can do a lot of damage to the trunk with excessive banging. The P.O. of my boat built up the outside walls of the trunk with extra layers of fiberglass. Due to the trunk was flexing. John
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:54 am

Jim, you tell me.
CB-pin3.JPG
Detail
CB-pin3.JPG (73.86 KiB) Viewed 1470 times

In this picture, it does look like there's a drilled hole. In another picture, you can see that the bottom face (in this orientation) of the pin shows signs of manufacturing instead of being rubbed blank. Unless @LGSailer tells us otherwise from direct observation on site, I'm prepared to believe that his CB trunk has the required recess.

If it is a case of the trunk being too wide, then bolting the pin from the reverse will also reduce the amount of "free play" available to the CB inside the trunk. It might be further reduced by either shimming the top sides of the board and/or by narrowing the opening of the trunk by adding some strips of material. Or both. And adding a strip of several layers of fiberglass on the outside of the trunk wall should help with flexing.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DS1 - Centerboard Issue

Postby LGsailer » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:02 pm

Correct the port side of the trunk does have the factory inset area. I updated the photo link with a photo called CBpivot where you can see it.

Also look at photo called "Handle3" - the handle can be inserted all the way into the inset but causes two issues. 1- the gasket would have to be extraordinarily small to work. 2 - the handle can't turn when pushed all the way in as it contacts the screw hole for the handle plate.
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