DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

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DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby Wylie » Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:09 pm

Crossposted on facebook

Time to cut the DS2 transom! (it is rotted sufficiently to the point where I do not feel comfortable mounting a ladder or a motor) I am excited to learn and need a list of materials before I begin.

I plan to do a write up on this project for other people to use at the end.

Gel coat part number? Quantity?
Paint part number? Quantity?
1708 fiberglass source? Quantity?
Resin part number? Quantity?
Hardener part number? Quantity?
Deck to hull adhesive part number? Quantity?
Transom wood/coosa board size? How to curve/bend (or shape) transom board?

Where to cut the deck?

I’m going to do this from the inside. The question is, where do I cut? I was planning on stepping back about a foot and cutting a straight line all the way across the deck from gunwale to gunwale. Strength is a concern after repair so where to cut is a concern. 

Update 09/08/2020
St Rudy suggested cutting as far aft as possible while leaving enough room to “tab-in” support from underneath. Plan is to cut just forward of the scupper drain in the lowest part of the pan.

Strength after repair?

Everything I hear says fiberglass work can end up being stronger than the original.… If it’s done correctly. My plan is to create tabs on a bench and let them cure. The cured tabs could be adhered to the underside of the untouched deck after sufficient prep. After they cure in place, multiple tabs could support the piece that was cut out before. Prep of the underside of the saved piece along the deck edge could create semi-interlocking tabs. (See pics on Facebook)

Update 09/08/2020
St Rudy alluded to this method in his suggestions

Transom board

This is an obstacle but not a dealbreaker. My effort is to reuse 99% of the original fiberglass with surgical cuts to preserve as much as possible. The transom board, however, is likely a total loss and in need of 100% replacement. While I have not found any instructional videos, I understand that there are ways to bend pressure treated plywood from Lowe’s. I have 5/8” thick marine grade plywood already with sufficient size to cut the shape of the transom twice or maybe thrice. I know it is probably easier to layer up several thinner portions of plywood. However, each layer would cost another $10-$15 in material. Stacking that much material would get very expensive very quickly. There is a solution that I just don’t know about for this.

Update 09/08/2020
St Rudy said The transom was kerfed somewhere between 10 and 12 times; vertically only. Fiberglassed over up against transom before deck/pan lowered into place.

Deck to hull

While the fiberglass patch should reconnect the farthest aft section of the deck (that was cut out) back to the original deck, cap will need to be glued back to the hull for the entire length of the transom plus about 1 foot wrapping around the back edges towards the bow. What type of adhesive should be used, what is its part number and how much should I get?

Gelcoat

Once I knock the high points off and get it smooth, I assume gelcoat comes next. What specific brand, quantity and part number should I expect to get?

Paint

Matching sun faded paint is nearly an impossibility. I have the yellow and brown sail pattern and most of the original marking still on it. I might only lose about a foot of pinstriping on the back. It will need paint to cover the patch line. What should I be looking for? What is the specific part number and quantity I should get?

What have I missed?

The fix a flat stop leak method

As we are all familiar with both of these products, they are a filthy and awful stopgap measures that only creates problems later. at the same time, there is a market for those products because sometimes it is appropriate to use them… albeit rarely. Seacast is a pour in transom repair product. A bunch of chopped up fiberglass mixed in a bucket of resin and Hardner is poured into the transom after removing the cap of the transom and hogging out all of the rotted wood. Only the cap comes off of the back of the transom. This means that the deck is not cut but only the cap on the back. The obvious problem is the question of what happens at the bottom. Does this product run back underneath the deck? Does it plug up holes that aren’t supposed to be plugged up? Has anybody here used this product before? It seems like it would cost about $500 for the sea cast repair and shooting from the hip, it looks like it’s going to be about $300 to cut the deck off, replace the entire transom board, and then re-fiberglass, fill, sand, gelcoat, and paint everything.

Update 09/08/2020
St Rudy did not immediately balk at this idea. He actually had good suggestions in how to make it work. We agreed that 6”-7” inspection ports as far aft as possible on the vertical face under the seat would allow access to work. A shop vac could be used with a copper pipe to remove old core. Then, build up a dam of bondo to catch the seacast where it would run out under the seat. The end result would be a transom core that follows the profile of the transom interior. The cap could be reused with VERY little fiberglass work being done.


If you made it this far, thanks in advance for all of your help and thank you for reading to the end! 
Last edited by Wylie on Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DS2 transom rot

Postby Wylie » Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:21 pm

I understand there are several topics that cover fiberglass work already in this department. I am hoping to continue editing the original post above to update part numbers and quantities for this project. Again, thank you in advance for all of your help!
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby GreenLake » Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:27 pm

Welcome to the forum.

This is an amazingly detailed post. (I may have overlooked something or other, so bear with me if I ask for something you already answered)

First question: is there any flex / movement in the hull at this point, in other words, are the two shells unsupported to where it affects the structural integrity of the boat as a whole, or is it just a question of being able to install things like a ladder or motor bracket and/or securing the rudder attachment.

If it is primarily the latter, then the "obvious" method would be to drill somewhat oversized holes from the outside where you want the mounting screws to go, use a bent nail in a drill or similar tool to remove any rotten wood in a circle around the hole. Then fill with something like your seacast (epoxy+fibers), tape it flush and let cure. Afterwards drill a narrow hole for the bolt (and paint the outside of any exposed epoxy for UV protection, or use gelcoat - for the latter you might want to use an epoxy that's "blush free" to improve chances of the gelcoat adhering and curing properly. (Such as SystemThree's Silvertip)

This method effectively adds localized "plugs" that act like compression posts between the two skins. They would not add much overall strength to the transom, hence my question.

You would use the same method for the rudder supports.

I would suspect that the lower you go for the transom the stronger the chances are that you would find fully rotted wood. That means for the lower gudgeons, you might cut out a larger circle of the inside transom wall so that you can cleat out the area more aggressively (create a much larger plug effectively). Even thickened epoxy will run, so, unless there's some wood left below your repair site, anything you put in there will run into the bilge. For a localized repair in the middle of the transom, that's not an issue, but you might lay your boat upside down to attack the lower end.

You might also investigate SystemThree's RotFix product and EndRot kit for treating some of the wood that's at the edge of your repairs. Especially where it might not be all gone.

If you cut a disc or square out of the inner transom, you can bevel the edges and just replace it with fresh laminate. As long as you have something solid on the inside, it's not that hard to lay up the replacement, in other words, you don't have the issue of having to save the existing piece. If you are replacing a larger section of the wood this way, you wouldn't fill it with just epoxy, but perhaps a plywood plug sealed and bedded in epoxy - just make sure when you drill into that to seal any exposed wood.

You could also cut a few inspection ports into the uprights for the seats. In fact, I would start with that, so you can get a better idea what is hidden underneath. Choose the largest size you can fit (they are sold as "deck plates" on some sites). Having such ports is useful, and you may need them at some point in the future.

Finally, I seem to recall that a DSII transom repair has been discussed here before. As the configuration is specific to the DSII, you may find it in the DSII only section. It may require some digging, but this forum never forgets anything.

Good luck.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby Wylie » Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:54 pm

Unfortunately, I have a pretty big air gap in between the two separated pieces of fiberglass. With hands on the cap next to the seat (both port and starboard), your fingers can pull in the hull about a half to 3/4 of an inch before hitting sponge when squeezed. Is there only one centered 6”-8” wide wooden core behind the gudgeons? Or, is there supposed to be a solid piece of wood spanning the entire transom both horizontally and vertically?
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby GreenLake » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:11 pm

Don't own a DSII (although I've sailed in one for days). I would be surprised to assume that there is a full sized board. For one, it would be really heavy. For another, the DS1 only has a 6-8" wide strip.

Put some inspection ports where I suggested and then you should be able to see what's going on in your boat. Rather than making assumptions and basing plans on them.

There's also a recent (this year) post by someone who did put ports there and reports some findings. You may simply have to read as I'm not sure what keywords you might search for.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby Wylie » Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:03 pm

Inspection ports are in my future. I think we are very close to confirming the suspicion that there is only a single core for the gudgeons that being the case. Weight came to mind for me as well. I am warming up to the oversized holes with epoxy. Still considering cutting the cap and inserting a void filler.
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby GreenLake » Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:46 pm

It's a massive operation and you'd want to be sure the benefits are substantial.

About mounting ladders and motor brackets, the archives here should have discussions on those; I remember reading them. With luck, you may find some that give specifics about how to secure these on a DSII. Look both in the DSII only and the Repair section as not all posts are perfectly sorted/filed and many cover multiple topics.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby Wylie » Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:40 pm

I updated the original post. I’m still not sure if I want to do the entire transom replacement or just cut inspection ports, dam it up, and pour chopped fiberglass and resin into the gap. I’d be happier with the total replacement as would next owner.
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby GreenLake » Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:18 pm

It's a pretty radical operation and one that is not common for older DSIIs. That means I'm hesitant to encourage you to commit to this, as your premise, i.e. what you will find when you open up your transom, may not be substantiated. I can only repeat my suggestion to first cut some inspection ports that will allow you to know precisely what the problem is and the extent of it. Only then can you devise a repair that's appropriate to conditions.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby Wylie » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:50 am

Massive is relative. Your concern is not misplaced. It is appreciated! My confidence is still high. Here is some background that should provide you some solace:

https://youtu.be/oeb6xlqf2eM

The short video is what my children made from the pictures I took while they built my engine for the minivan. I got them set up for a 10 minute task, helped them to complete it on their own, and sent them back to play video games for another 20 minutes while I set up the next step. Together, they built the motor from the oil pan drain plug all the way to the air filter. I had to lift the heads on because they were too heavy and I had to torque anything past 60lbs.

While the task is complex, each step is not. You are absolutely correct with the inspection ports. That is today’s research. A rubber mallet found the support a previous poster referenced. I’m confident I can place 7” ports aft of the last seat support and just forward of the transom. Still searching for pics. As always, your advice is always appreciated even when I stupidly ignore it. ;) I’ll be the first to confess when it goes sideways and I’ll solicit your, “I told you so!”
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby GreenLake » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:25 am

Oh, I'm sure you could probably pull it off. All I'm arguing is that it's like a complex and invasive operation, like a heart lung transplant or double mastectomy. Those can be done successfully, but you'd want the CT scan or biopsy first, so you know the exact condition and can confirm that the radical operation is the best treatment. That's what the inspection ports are for. You'll be able to take pictures, but also, depending on what you find, you may be able to "operate" through them, like a minimally invasive procedure. Or you may confirm the need to replace half the patient. Point is, you don't know until you look.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby GreenLake » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:31 am

PS: very nice video. Amazing project.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby Wylie » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:04 pm

GreenLake wrote:Oh, I'm sure you could probably pull it off. All I'm arguing is that it's like a complex and invasive operation, like a heart lung transplant or double mastectomy. Those can be done successfully, but you'd want the CT scan or biopsy first, so you know the exact condition and can confirm that the radical operation is the best treatment. That's what the inspection ports are for. You'll be able to take pictures, but also, depending on what you find, you may be able to "operate" through them, like a minimally invasive procedure. Or you may confirm the need to replace half the patient. Point is, you don't know until you look.



Definitely definitely definitely inspection ports. No argument here. We are both together on that one. 100%.

All the same, it has squishy transom. I want to take this to the beach. When I go, I want to take it mostly on the intercoastal and sometimes on the ocean. Not 20 miles out, just along the beach. However, I also want to swing a 6 hp Mercury off the back along with a fat-person swim ladder for old people, a stand for the mast & boom, a trolling motor, and, of course, the rudder. I will probably continue to tow kayaks as well. Knowing I am going to be heavy laden, I will probably also reinforce the transom to the hull at the sides. While this could be done through an inspection port, I’d rather not.

Instead, the inspection ports will help me to work on the majority of the underside of the sectioned out piece of the pan. I bought enough materials to do all of it. I picked up my piece of plywood today

Some may say it is overkill. They also told me it was overkill to put a 351 Windsor into a two door maverick. It all depends on what you want to do with the finished product. I want to swing a bunch of weight off the transom without worrying about all of the weight I’m swinging off the transom falling off the transom along with the transom. It may sail like crap while improperly balanced and that’s OK. I may have to cut it up with a chainsaw and throw it away one trash bag at a time. That would not be AS OK but it would have to be OK eventually. Either way, it would make for a thorough autopsy with an entire boat worth of rigging left over. Alas, I doubt it will come to that.

I’m hoping to get good pictures along the way no matter what. It seems the daysailer two community severely is lacking exploratory pictures of a (insert major organ group here) transplant. It would be worth it to me as a community service.

Your caution is not unwarranted. It is not unwanted. It is appropriate. I thank you for it. To everyone else looking on. Don’t try this at home. At least not until I post some really good pictures for everybody.
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby GreenLake » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:46 pm

The 6HP sounds like serious overkill for a DS. To get to about hull speed you need approx 2.5HP. If you want to do that while you have a seriously stiff breeze against you, I think 3.5 to 4HP would be enough. The extra two only cost you in weight, I don't think they are enough, by far, to get the DS on a plane, so you won't go any faster as hull speed is a pretty hard limit for displacement mode.

It's your boat, but it's your funeral. Why have a sailboat when you trash its ability to sail well from the outset?

Pulling the kayak costs some incremental amount of extra power, but the power / speed ratio is so steep close to the hull speed that I bet you won't notice the effect. (If you lose 10% of your power so you can tow the kayak, you'll lose much less then 10% of your speed in that speed regimen).

I move mine at 2/3 hull speed with 1/3 HP (albeit electric, so everything's totally optimized to not waste power). And I don't overload the boat. But it should give you an idea how easily driven the boat is and how much of the power might be spent getting the last 5% of a knot near hull speed. Nominal hull speed is around 5.4kt for a DS, actual can be a tad more, but that's your limit. Whether you get 5.45kt or even 5.5kt is something you won't be able to notice except with a GPS.

But whether in moderate winds you sail half a knot slower by engaging your transom as a parking brake, that's definitely something you'll feel. And it will make sailing in anything but brisk winds even more boring for those two bright young lights of yours, when in fact moderate winds can be the most challenging and teach you more about optimal sail trim than anything.

Moving just my weight from back of the cockpit to the foredeck (admittedly, that one was for sake of experiment), I could get boat speed from 3.0 knots to 3.5. That was under electric motor, to have controlled conditions, and it is quite possible that I ran into some effect like diminished prop efficiency due to the max revolutions the motor was set to. (In other words, I can't tell whether 3.5 was the limit due to total power required or due to some other effects with that slow spinning propeller design). But .5kt difference under sail would be big.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convert you here to a minimalist when it comes to propulsion, but to suggest you approach this as an engineering solution to a total system - and the system is a sailboat, not a runabout with a mast on top. If it's the latter you want, truly, trade in your DS for a McGregor 26. You'll enjoy that more.

Mechanical propulsion on a sailboat has its place, but it should be auxiliary. Now every sailing region/style of sailing puts different demands on what such an auxiliary system has to deliver for power and range; but simply "bigger" is far from "better" in this case (just like blindly going small doesn't make it automatically beautiful, if conditions aren't suitable).

Hope you don't mind a bit of philosophizing here.

Now, for swim ladder off the back, I definitely understand that you'll want to have your transom support one (reliably). If your two shells aren't connected by any filler, is it enough to put spacers between the two? Will that hold the bolts and your ladder? I wonder whether you've had the chance to confirm with some other owners that your transom is actually softer/weaker than the norm, because I know people (of substantial!! weight) who have successfully mounted and used swim ladders w/o cutting off the end of their DSII.

The boat in question also had an unrepaired section of damage in the hull-deck joint just forward of the stern, leaving hull and deck unconnected for a bout 18". It didn't seem to impact the use of the swim ladder. That boat completed multiple rounds of the Tx200, not at all a picnic of an event. This is among the things that are in the back of my head when I'm a bit skeptical about all that massive strengthening you are planning. There may be some give between the two hulls, but the overall structure isn't necessarily weak - unless there's something very specific to your boat (like external damage).

Now, if I had the boat in front of me, I might say something different, because I can only imagine the condition base on your description. But without corroboration from at least some other DSII owners I reserve judgement on whether this is a necessary repair.
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Re: DS2 transom rot repair/replacement parts list

Postby Wylie » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:44 pm

I do a bunch of small engine repair. The reason for the step from the 2.5 & 3 hp to the 5 hp is two fold. Neither of which is a search for speed.

First argh the jets in the carb. The larger carb has larger jets. That’s good when varnished up orifices result from my lazy lack of maintenance. The smaller the motor, the more finicky the carb. Insert proper maintenance retort here. It is expected and required.

Mercury nissan tohatsu is the brand of the day for the 5hp

Mercury lists the long shaft 5hp with exhaust bypass as their sail power motor. The 5hp unit is 57lbs. Their 2.5 & 3 hp are 43lbs. The 4 hp is a smaller carb on the exact same 5hp with the alternator omitted and a plastic prop. The 6hp is the same as the 5hp with a different carb again; this time with slightly a larger venturi and jets. Both the 5 hp and 6 hp come with metal props and alternators. I use the trolling motor pretty often as well and charging the deep cycle battery off the gas engine doesn’t sound so bad either. Inspection ports will def allow for some limited wiring for nearby plugs to make for shorter cables hanging from the trolling motor and gas motor. (3-4 wires total)

All in all, I want a charging system, I wanted bigger jets, and I wanted something light enough that I could take on and off of the transom and still be able to put in the cuddy cabin. I wanted it to be a brand-name. Specifically, mercury. Even though it’s built by tohatsu. I can get local service. I went to the show room to make sure I could lift the motor. They looked at me sideways. I told him I would give them money if they would let me pick up their engine off of the stand. They were obliged to go right over and unscrew the thing so I could pick it up over my head just to be sure. They got a little mad. I gave them money. My motor is coming. I posted a mistake before. I ordered the 5 hp. Again, it was light enough for me to manage, it has a charging system, and it has marginally larger jets in the fuel induction system. I also understand the boat is rated for 8 hp and I also understand that I’m not such a giant hothead that I’m gonna go out and start wrapping it up to max RPMs every time I run the motor either.

At 60lbs, if it ain’t too choppy, the motor can go in the cuddy cabin. I do it with my trolling motor already. Sliding with a motor in your lap counts as buffing the gel coat as well, so there’s that.

In the end, it is an addition of about 15 pounds. While I’m not too old, I can still lunk it around. The trade-off probably isn’t worth it for very many others. I understand. There will be naysayers and that’s OK. I believe that when people come looking to this as a reference guide they will see the cautionary statements that are involved and hopefully be dissuaded. Better still if it happens early on.

As for the ladder, I am sure that people have accomplished a lot with filler and sandwiching some pressure treated lumber. I was even thinking about cutting up a plank I already have and practicing my fiberglass skills by making a chunk to bolt on and adhere to the back. I noticed a post from someone else mentioning they had welded on a step at the top of their ladder because it was too short. I ordered a ladder that had more steps and made sure there was a step close to the top already. It mounts to the vertical face of the transom. It will have a lot of rotational force from top to bottom on a small bracket that would be supported by a fiberglass wrapped piece of 2 x 8. But instead of hanging pieces of lumber off the back of my boat, I would like to be able to mount it directly to my boat. However, like you said, not being here, it’s not easy to see where the rot is. Unfortunately, the rot has progressed quite a ways. The tympanic method with a rubber mallet along with just pressing into the skin and feeling and watching it move means there is nothing solid where I want to mount the ladder. The same applies for the trolling motor. And the gas engine. And the stand for the mast. Basically everything that I want to mount is supposed to mount where it is soft. I have a lot of stuff that I want to mount. That means most of the transom is soft. Kind of sad, at the same time, it is not an obstacle for me but an opportunity. Please don’t underestimate my tenacity. Also, please don’t underestimate my stupidity. Thank you again for all of your advice. Please keep it coming. People need to hear it. People are going to read this. They will be helped by your warnings.
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