day sailer 2 bottom painting

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day sailer 2 bottom painting

Postby Guest » Mon Mar 01, 2004 3:29 pm

I have always dry sailed my day sailer 2. I moved to another state and may now keep it on a moooring. As far as i know, the hull has never been painted. How would I apply bottom paint and what kind would I use? Do I have to paint the centerboard and the inside of the centerboard trunk? If so, what is the best way to do this - my boat is on a trailer and I don't have access to a hoist.

Thank you.

paul otterstedt (pjo25-at-columbia.edu)
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Postby Guest » Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:21 pm

Start by taking the boat of the trailer and turning it upside down. Hull prep is to clean with MEK, not the MEKP for fiberglass. After cleaning, tape off what you don't want to paint. Sand the surface with 220. Add several coats of epoxy barrier coat. Follow with the antifoulant paint. What type of paint you use depends on where the boat is going to be kept. Ask the folks around there what they use and how long it last. As for the centerboard trunk and board, they too will need to be painted if they are submerged, which part of the will be. If at all possible I would trailer sail it. The set up time on the boat is short. In most marinas they have facilities to keep a boat rigged and on the trailer ready for floating when you arrive.

Collin

Collin Casey (gybe-it-at-houston.rr.com)
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Postby Guest » Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:02 pm

I almost forgot. Don't forget to sand between coats of expoxy, and between epoxy and bottom paint. Do not sand antifoulant paint. For a good source of info on this subject in easy to understand format, read Sailboat Refinishing by Don Casey (no relation).

Collin

Collin Casey (gybe-it-at-houston.rr.com)
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Postby Guest » Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:41 pm

Putting bottom paint on is a pain in the rear but not all that complicated (assuming the boat will be in fresh water, anyway!). I've used a product called "Unepoxy". Instructions on how to apply it are on the can. Basically you first need to clean off "crud" on the bottom then clean it with a solvent (mentioned on the can) to desolve any old fiberglas mold release that remains there (supposedly it's still there even on an old boat). Next you have a choice...sand the bottom to roughen it up so the bottom paint will adhere, or apply a coat of bottom prep non-sanding primer. Then apply two coats of the Unepoxy. I do all this with the boat on the trailer. Supposedly you don't really need to coat the entire bottom...only the upper area where the sun can shine on and cause the "moss" to grow. I generally do most of the bottom anyway, since once you're under there it isn't that much more work to do it all. I've never done the centerboard or inside the centerboard trunk. Also, areas covered by the trailer bunks or rollars are probably not critical because they are far enough under the bottom that the sunshine won't get there. But there are ways to jack up one side or the other, or front or rear, of the boat while on the trailer to gain some access to these areas if you desire to.

steve parsons (saabdrver-at-aol.com)
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Re: day sailer 2 bottom painting

Postby IslandFarmer » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:02 pm

Based on my experience last summer (weekly cleanings while swimming awkward and inadequate), I've just purchased ablative anti-fouling paint (West Marine's CPP+) for my DSII that will be on a mooring (salt water) for about 2-1/2 months. Paul's initial post was answered in the affirmative ... yes, paint the parts of the CB and trunk that will be in the water when moored. My centerboard has never been painted and I'm unsure/don't recall how much of the CB trunk may have been.
  • Is there a general rule of thumb for how many inches I should be trying for in the CB trunk and along the CB leading edge?
  • Any tips/tricks for applying paint in such a narrow space as the CB trunk? (I found great ideas for sanding/cleaning.)
1983 DSII 12250
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Re: day sailer 2 bottom painting

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 am

Any of the foam brushes for detail work should be fine. Or a small roller.

While the entire CB trunk will get wet during a sail, the area that stays wet should be pretty much defined by where the water line would fall. I'm not sure, but I imagine that wave action would lead to some pressure differentials in the water, which means that the level in the trunk may also oscillate a bit around the waterline. So give it an inch or two - there's no optics to be worried about, but best to keep it close to the height that you can sand. Also, if you have barnacles already, they would give you a guide.
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Re: day sailer 2 bottom painting

Postby IslandFarmer » Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:50 pm

I'm continuing with this thread since multiple searches both general (using Google), under Repair and Improvement, and in the thread Basic Painting Questions didn't turn up the information I am seeking ... at least in a way that I could take it in. I've also read West Marine's prep instructions on its DIY Bottom Painting site. https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/DIY-Bottom-Painting Apologies in advance for duplication / incorrect thread / ignorance / length. The sailing is easy and I know how to paint, but the prep part is pretty much all new to me.

I have now got my boat upside-down: Collin Casey's 3/1/2004 step one. :)
My step two was cleaning algae with a plastic "steel-wool" scrubby, scraping barnacles, then washing with SimpleGreen, rinsing with water, and wiping blue paint residue.

The hull is now about 20% gelcoat and 80% old bottom paint (ablative antifouling applied with a brush). Some of it (brighter blue) is quite hard. Other parts are thin and came off when I scrubbed scum with my black scrubby. See photo.
image5.jpeg
Hull after initial cleaning
image5.jpeg (33.82 KiB) Viewed 6813 times

Neither the centerboard trunk nor the CB has ever been painted. My plan for both is to paint the areas where there was algal growth (thanks GL). This works out to about 6–8˝ in the trunk and 8–10˝ on the leading edge and sides of the centerboard.

I am now realizing that I haven't considered what additional prep work may be involved before painting. I am not racing this boat and don't really care about appearances, but am willing to invest time, effort, and dollars now — using my weekend time — for savings of all three down the road. Hoping, however, that I can be out on the water by the end, if not the middle, of July.

Condition of hull: Apart from the blotchy paint remains (and centerline issue described below), the bottom surface is in very good condition. No blisters, cracks, etc. And no leaks. She floated high and dry on her mooring for three months last summer.

Condition of centerboard: leading and bottom edges are worn through the gelcoat but firm and intact. Sides have lots of cracks . . . some radiating (spider cracks?).

Considerations, Issues, and Questions:
  • Keel/Centerline under the bow. A stretch of about three feet is pretty worn -- through the gelcoat. Close up, I see some dark green and black. See photo.
    image4.jpeg
    Keel under bow
    image4.jpeg (26.86 KiB) Viewed 6813 times

    Question 1: What preparation, if any, should I be looking at for this edge that probably gets the most wear, coming up on a beach, for example. (I had a roller added to my trailer last year so the boat no longer drops to the trailer frame when launching!) Is there a post that would fill me in (pun intended)?
  • Centerboard - leading and bottom edges (also side cracks).
    Question 2: What preparation, if any, do I need for the CB edges? Is is the same as for the keel/centerline?
    Question 3: Can I ignore the side cracks (at least this, my second, year)?
  • Centerboard trunk. WestMarine says after cleaning gelcoat:
    You can then lightly sand the hull with 120-grit sandpaper or use a no sand primer instead, such as Interlux Fiberglass No-Sand Primer or Pettit Sandless Primer.

      Collin Casey 3/1/2004 (above) recommended several layers of epoxy barrier paint. This sounds completely different from WestMarine's recommendation. Bob Lemaire explains when barrier coats are useful.
    Bob Lemaire wrote: Let's Fix Anhinga! Part 3: The Hull and Painting » Tue Dec 02, 1997 1:00 am. Barrier coat bottom paint is neccessary if your gelcoatis damaged or is blistering and you are not drysailing. These paints are tricky to apply, and must be applied in several coats with strict time/temperature schedules.

      Since the CB trunk gelcoat is undamaged and unblistered, I will skip the epoxy barrier paint and follow WM's option to sand with 120 grit. However, . . .
      Question 4: I'm concerned about too many layers of paint impeding the CB's movement up and down. Will two layers of paint in the trunk and two more on the centerboard be too much? (I know GL advises shaping the CB foil but that is beyond me. :) )
  • Hull - mix of bare spots and old ablative AF paint.
      My understanding is that you sand to rough up the surface for better adhesion of the paint. And that you don't want to paint over paint that isn't well-adhered.
      WestMarine says:
    If old paint must be removed because it’s incompatible or too deteriorated to overcoat, be sure to have Aqua-Strip™, Ready-Strip® or other stripper system or other material on hand.

      Question 5: How do I tell if the paint that remains on the boat is "too deteriorated to overcoat"?
      Preparation of painted areas assuming I don't have to remove all of it. Some of it is really stuck on there. According to the compatibility chart, West Marine CPP Ablative Plus requires only "light sanding" before painting over existing ablative antifouling paint. Their general prep instructions advise 80 grit (which seems pretty coarse).
      Question 6: Doesn't light sanding mean to use a fine grain paper like 220 as tomodda recommends below?
      I discovered that rubbing hard (to remove hardened scum, etc.) with my black scrubby pretty easily removes the thinner areas of existing bottom paint.
      Question 7: Is that an indication that the paint is too deteriorated or just that it is an ablative paint?
      Preparation of white areas. Use 120 grit for "light sanding" of the gelcoat as recommended by WestMarine.
      Question 8: Is this whole idea manageable ... applying some paint to sanded gelcoat and the rest to sanded bottom paint?
  • Solvent cleaning. Collin recommended MEK. WestMarine talks about "solvent wash such as Interlux 202 or Pettit Dewaxer."
      I like tomodda's economical suggestion in the thread Re: Basic Painting Questions Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:02 pm to use mineral spirits instead.
      Question 9: Okay to use mineral spirits?
  • Painting - number of coats. West Marine says:
    2 or 3 minimum, with additional coat(s) on leading edges and waterline recommended.

      I've read that if you put one layer down in a different color as a marker "signal" or "flag" coat, you can see what areas wear down first and apply a first coat of new paint just on the worn areas ... a way of using less paint overall from year to year.
      Question 10: Sounds like a good idea. Thinking I'll pick up a quart of the same paint, different color. Any comments?

Plan
1. Clean more and better. Use TSP per tomodda's recommendation. Do solvent cleaning just before painting each section (CB trunk, CB, hull) ... allowing sufficient time to dry.
2. Prep worn edges (keel and centerboard). Put two coats of bottom paint on these two edges.
3. Prep everything else.
4. Paint the centerboard trunk and the part of CB that stays inside the trunk (2 coats).
5. Put the CB back in vertical position. Bed the plates. Retie the CB down line.
6. Paint the CB edges and leading sides below the waterline (2 coats) ... can do both sides while standing on the hull.
7. Mark waterline with grease pen and mask with tape. (Too late to have used the very cool hose-as-level technique now that it's flipped, so I will eyeball based on staining. Existing paint job comes up way high at the bow. I will just leave that.)
8. Paint the rest of the hull. Apply a flag color to the parts that are already white or thin. Then two coats of my CPP Ablative Plus blue.

Question 11: Does this order of things make sense? Comments welcome. : )

For painting I plan to follow Tomodda's plan except the roll and tip part. (New term for me!) I watched a couple of videos and think I'll stick with brush work. Less waste. :)
tomodda wrote: Paint prep: Clean with mineral spirits, wipe off with shop towel, second wipe with lint free cloth. (3rd wipe right before painting with tack cloth, below waterline only). Paint (roll and tip!), dry.
Next coat: Cut previous coat with 220grit, repeat paint prep/painting.
1983 DSII 12250
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Re: day sailer 2 bottom painting

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:31 am

Wow, this is so detailed, I'm not going to be able to do it justice in full. I'll have to cherry pick a few items and hope that others will be able to fill in.

If you beach your boat a lot (and I mean a lot), you might consider using epoxy to glue a metal strip under the bow. However, it seems the damage was from a non-optimal trailer, since corrected. I'm partial to 3M High Strength Marine filler. It is fiber reinforced and can be applied "proud" of the surface or at edges. Build up the scraped down edge with that before you paint.

Same for CB edges.

For CB, plan on buying a new one. You can scrape out the cracks and fill them with the same filler, if you want.
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Re: day sailer 2 bottom painting

Postby IslandFarmer » Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:27 am

Thanks GL. I'll pick up some 3M High Strength Marine filler and get to work on the CB and centerline edges this weekend. Will ignore the CB side cracks this year and keep in mind replacing the CB at some point. (I probably beach the boat 2–3 times a season.)

My next dilemma is how many layers of paint will fit on CB sides and in CB trunk without impeding centerboard operation. I think I will post that in DSII because of CB design changes.

Yes ... long and detailed. I'll try to keep things shorter in the future. :)
1983 DSII 12250
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Re: day sailer 2 bottom painting

Postby tomodda » Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:48 am

Wow, I'm not used to being quoted as an authority... "Serves as a warning to others" is more my speed. But now that we're here, I'll try to answer some of your questions:

Question 1: I'm with GL, you probably damaged the bow on the trailer, not beaches, dont worry about it. Fix any obvious dents/gouges and then sail on. Anyway, beaching on sand shouldn't harm your paint (much) and I don't beach on rock or pebbles, I anchor off a few feet. Let out an anchor astern, hop overboard and take a line forward to tie off to something on the beach.

Questions 2, 3: I'm with GL again. Put filler for any obvious dings/cracks, sand it smooth

Question 4: I think you'll be fine. On my boat at least, there's at least 1/4 inch between CB and trunk. Takes an AWFUL amount of paint to fill 1/4 inch. Besides, you're using ablative paint, right? The high spots will rub off!

Question 5: If it's flaking off it's too deteriorated

Question 6: Yes, light sanding is 220 grit paper. You just want to sand the underlying layers (even your old leftover spots) enough to give it some "teeth" to hold the next layer. Ideally the grit is finer than the width of the next coat you're putting one. So 80 grit is WAY too much, as is 120, etc. 220 is good.

Question 7: Yes, ablative paint can be taken off with a scrubby and elbow grease. Of course, so can badly deteriorated paint. Anyway, I wouldnt worry about it, take off whatever old paint you can.

Question 8: Yes, you'll be Ok painting new ablative paint on top of the spots that don't want to come off. By definition, those spots aren't "deteriorated paint," because they're not flaking off.

Question 9: Well, obviously I'm going to say that you're Ok cleaning with mineral spirits, but let me explain why. Mineral Spirits are an organic solvent (even though it's made of petroleum), same as turpentine. MEK, Interlux 202, Dewaxers, etc are Lacquer Based Thinners, basically the same as Acetone (also organic solvent), with various additives to keep it from evaporating immediately. Big difference being that the Lacquer Thinners will dissolve plastics. They are the way to go if you need to remove fiberglass mold wax, fiberglass bloom, odd streaks in the gelcoat, etc. But we don't have to worry about any of that on our old boats, the mold wax is long gone, you only get blooming where raw fiberglass is exposed to UV (we have gelcoat on top), and we're not applying new gelcoat. So, no need for a lacquer thinner... besides you really ought to use protective gear with it. Bunny suit, respirator, thick latex gloves. Way overkill for simply wiping off the last of the sanding dust, use a cloth dampened with mineral oil and you're good. To tell the truth, a good hosedown with water would be just as good, just a pain to dry off after. Mineral Oil dries fast, you can start painting moments after your wipedown.

On the other hand (there's always another hand!), you want to use that the manufacturer recommends for thinning their paint. Prepare the wallet!

Question 10: Sure, why not? In practice, though.. any "spot" areas that need to be repainted will be so far under your trailer that you can't reach it (Murphy's Law). So you'll have to flip the boat. But the boat is so small that once you've flipped it you may as well repaint the entire bottom. My own hull is now two years removed from it's last paint job, and full of scratches and black marks. Do I sail any SLOWER because of them? Not really, I'm fully capable of sailing slowly without any help! Does it look bad? Yeah, but you can't see it once you're over 10 feet away. Maybe I'll fix it this winter, maybe not. I'm going sailing for a week with my son in September, he's "salty" enough to remark on the banged up paint, so I may lose face in front of my boy (35 years old). My plan? Keep him INSIDE the boat, where he can't see the paint, and ply him with plenty of beer! Problem solved. Anyway, this just to say don't overthink the paint job, enjoy sailing.

I have a question for you myself.... Why are you doing this NOW? Unflip the boat, go sailing! Summers are short, winters are for painting. Unless you live on the Long Island Sound (you do, don't you?), then summers are windless, try to get the boat finished by September and enjoy the Falltime. Speaking of which, I'm highly skeptical of your timeline... 3 weekends. You need to factor in drying time between coats, and sanding, and fixing goofs (you're painting outdoors? Prepare for bugs!), and the inevitable rains and overly humid days. On the other hand, with ablative paint, no reason to go for a "showboat" mirror finish, the bottom will quickly ablate itself into smoothness. Anyway, wishing you best of luck!

Tom
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Re: day sailer 2 bottom painting

Postby IslandFarmer » Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:31 am

Thank you, Tom, for tackling the whole list. :D
And for the reminder about thinner!

As for your question, see my first post on this thread, June 21. Also, I live 2 hours from my boat, so fall/winter work is impractical. Plus, now that the hull is clean of stuff that grows, I want to keep it that way. And I'd rather be on this learning curve now, unrushed, and warm, with family around, than later, cold, and alone. (Also, I do have some flexibility with weekdays if weekend forecasts are too damp.)

Not exactly sure what you mean about the winds in Long Island Sound vs. other places during the summer. Yes, Stonington is in LIS, and locally, in Fisher's Island Sound. I wouldn't describe the wind as being one way or the other from day to day ... always different, although it typically blows onshore in the morning and changes to offshore and picks up in the afternoon. I think last summer I chose my sailing times according to the wind, so I have good memories. In fact it was near the end of the summer when it dawned on me to put a paddle aboard! :)

P.S. I figure any bugs that get stuck will ablate with the paint. Besides, only the fish will see the bottom once it's in the water.
1983 DSII 12250
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Re: day sailer 2 bottom painting

Postby GreenLake » Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:31 pm

Speed differences from a poorly prepared bottom should only matter in comparison to another boat in the same conditions at the same time; in other words, it should be low enough compared to the variability of wind and sea state that you won't be able to reliably detect it other than by direct comparison.

Your sail trim, boat balance (including not sitting at the back and not dragging your stern (because you've clamped a 300# 250HP outboard to it) should matter more.

But once you compare to someone sailing next to you with the same skill in a boat otherwise rigged/prepared identically, you can readily observe the difference between a rough and smooth bottom.
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Re: day sailer 2 bottom painting

Postby GreenLake » Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:39 pm

@Tom: nice reply, and yes, you're becoming quite the authority :)
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