Mainsheet setup and Purchase System

[jeadstx]

I know several DS II owners who have done this repair. When I repaired mine, I used 1/8" aluminum backing plate through bolted with nyloc nuts. I ground out the old backing also.

John

[DigitalMechanic]

I thought about putting metal back there. I am afraid aluminum will rust/corrode out over the long haul. I am not sure what that would mean in a wet area considering it may start to seep below at some point. The other part of me is not sure it would matter with fiberglass. I also, thought about Marine grade Stainless Steel, but where would you get a plate of it is beyond me (it believe it would also require special tools to cut). So, I decided to try the marine plywood. It seems strong enough for the job, seems to provide a strong enough backing plate, and is non-corrosive. Only time will tell. I would have liked to remove the old backing, but not sure how or what tool I would get in there to do the job. It was in pretty bad shape and I think that the rotted wood had become one with the fiberglass backing plate, lol. I could not get it out, or I would have slid the marine plywood in there to get it snug against the coaming back side.

[talbot]

I will own up to being as much of a sissy as digitalMechanic. It can be pretty gross back there. Why on earth did O'Day back up the jib tracks with plywood (which would have to be replaced), and then wrap the plywood in glass--which would prevent it from being replaced? I suppose it was efficient to hold the plywood in position with a flap of glass so that later in the assembly line someone could slap on the jib tracks after the hull liner was in place. The DS II was made during the Bangor Punta phase of the company, when they were part of the largest boat-building conglomerate in the country and were cranking out Rangers, Cals, and O'Days in large numbers. O'Day was the low-end line, and it shows.

Rudy at D&R Marine recommends moving the tracks to the coaming top (where they eventually ended up on the DS III) and backing them with metal or fiberglass. Jamestown Distributors now sells thick fiberglass plates that you can cut to fit. On my current boat, the wood was still intact, so I haven't moved the tracks (yet).

[jeadstx]

I would imagine that they used the wood with fiberglass covering because they never thought that 30 or more years later these boats would still be sailing.

John

[DigitalMechanic]

I will own up to being as much of a sissy as digitalMechanic. It can be pretty gross back there.

Thanks, that makes me feel better, lol. I think I have watched too much HGTV where the hazmat team comes in to clean up black mold. I was having a not so fun mental moment when my hand was in there, lol.

I would imagine that they used the wood with fiberglass covering because they never thought that 30 or more years later these boats would still be sailing.

Yeah, I would consider wood a consumable on a boat. They definitely were not thinking this far into the future when they came up with that solution.

We sailed the boat on Sunday pretty hard, and tussled with the jib tracks quite a bit (and quite violently to get them un-cleated at times). There were several moments where we were very frustrated with them, to say the least. However, they marine plywood backer held up nicely to the winds abuse and our anger, lol.

[DigitalMechanic]

Okay, to get back on topic about the mainsheet and jib systems and purchase power. My friend and I sailed the boat on Sunday after reviewing all the work I had done to it prior.

We launched on the "Fat Part" of the river (where the wind is pretty strong). Winds were probably 12-15 mph, with gusts up to 20mph. My friend is a pro sailer so having him skipper the boat allowed us to push the boat pretty hard, and really put it through the paces. We were not only testing out the mainsheet and jib systems, but also the seaworthiness of the boat after upgrading all the rigging (standing and running) and several other fixes that had been made to strengthen the boats integrity (such as work to the mast and the re-enforcement of the jibs cars, etc). Also, tuning the mast (for the new sails) and critiquing and the overall efficiency of block placement and sheet handling were part of the agenda. We had a big checklist, and finished the day with a bunch of notes for the new “Todo List”. However, I am just going to go over the items we have been discussing in this thread.

Here is the feed back I got from him...

1. The mainsheet purchase at 3:1 was fine in his opinion. But remember I now had an auto ratchet on the boom, which I would say is critical to easing the sheet in heavier winds. However, the fiddle block was not very fun to manage. Flipping the cleat just trades the auto-cleating problem from one sail position to another. When reaching the cleat is facing up, and we had to beat on it or kick it at times to get it un-cleated. Basically, we were trimming the sail with hands and feet, lol. Close hauled it is not as bad. However, considering that he had us at a 30 degree heel most of the time we were closed hauled (I think we could have used another bottom on the rail), hiking out and working with this cleat was not un-manageable but still could have been easier. Anyway, we decided that a swivel base cam cleat and fiddle, like previously mentioned, is going to be an inevitable purchase (at least for this boat).

2. The jib sheet system, as I quote him... "That thing has to go!". We had to pull really hard to sheet in and violently fought with it at times to un-cleat (when the wind was gustier). He recommends we add manual ratchets (40mm) and cleat off on centerboard so you can pull up to easily un-cleat (creates an easy angle to deal with no matter where you are sitting).

3. Boom Vang - We gave up on using the 3:1 vang to any real extent. It really was not moving much (at least in that wind) and not fun to try and access. We kind of set it, and left it there for the most part. We are going to turn this into a 5:1 to start, and change the cleating arrangement to be more user friendly. If more power is needed we can always cascade it. I will report back with more info when we come up with final product for this.

4. Hiking straps - I will throw this in there because he said we could not reach the maximum speed he wanted to push the boat to because we could not shift weight far enough out. I am not sure that I will sail the boat quite as hard as he does, lol.

All in all, the boat got a good report. These were really only the things that got negative marks. The boat held up well to everything that was thrown at it, there just needs a more efficient way to handle the sheets. Thus, I have not solved any problems posed in the thread yet , but at least have a "work in progress" for each item on the list.

[talbot]

I only recently checked into this discussion, so maybe I missed something -- did you replace that swivel cam for your mainsheet, or just add the ratchet block?
I ask, because the technology for cams has progressed over the years. A 3:1 main with modern swivel cam and ratchet is a pretty standard setup, and should be really easy to use. If you can't cleat/uncleat the main with a flick of the wrist, something is wrong. If the main is hard to handle, it might just be the old cams. You could also gain mechanical advantage by using a stern traveller, but you say that purchase isn't a problem. That's why I suspect the equipment.

I would go for the hiking straps unless you have physical limitations (like knee problems) that prevent you from using them. Any time a planing hull like the DS is heeled more than about 15 degrees, it's slowed down. Having the boat up on its side isn't necessarily pushing it hard, it's just having the boat up on its side--and not moving very fast. Pushing it hard means holding the boat down to 15 degrees or less, at which point the boat gets dramatically (as in kick-in-the-ass) faster, especially on a reach. Sometimes pushing it hard means reducing sail, because the boat will go faster sailed flat with a reefed main than under full sail heeled over.

[DigitalMechanic]

I only recently checked into this discussion, so maybe I missed something -- did you replace that swivel cam for your mainsheet, or just add the ratchet block?

I flipped the cleat on the fiddle block attached to the center board trunk (if you go back a page or 2 I posted some pictures of it). There was discussion of this as a $$ saving alternative to purchasing a swivel base cam cleat that would allow the mainsheet to be un-cleated by pulling upwards. This mod, in my opinion, did not work out. This is because when reaching the cleat gets very vertical, and thus becomes auto-cleating again... in which the purpose of the mod was to eliminate (it used to face down and always cleated no matter the pull angle).

The purchase at 3:1 is fine. I expect it to get a little smother yet... with modern hardware. The block that is currently used is 40 years old

I added the Harken auto-ratchet to the boom. This is very nice addition, and makes easing the sheet much better.

I would go for the hiking straps unless you have physical limitations

No physical limitations here. We may have been able to flatten out the boat a little more if we could have leaned out. I will put that on the future todo list after getting all the other sail handling items checked off the list. Looks like fun!

Any time a planing hull like the DS is heeled more than about 15 degrees, it's slowed down.

It would have been nice to have one more bottom on the rail, we are both kind of skinny, lol. We wanted to test the integrity of the boat, as it was in bad shape when I got it. I have replaced all the standing (and running) rigging on it, and asked him to make sure it was solid and mast properly tuned/setup for the new sails. With our (limited) weight, the only way to put more pressure on the rig is to make it heel more (or at least that is what I though ). This boat actually had allot of re-inforcement projects, lol. I was very excited to see it so stable/strong. But those projects are kind of off topic, so I have barely mentioned them here.

I have not actually sailed the boat at 30 degrees before, nor 15 degrees, lol. Maybe 7-8 degrees, lol. I was very uncomfortable when he first had us heeling that much close hauled... and then it got fun. He showed me that the boat will not capsize, as the weather helm is doing it's job correctly, and causing the boat to round up slowly. Basically, as we started to heel badly, he would let the weather helm "feather" or "pull" the tiller toward the center of the boat slowly, the boat would de-power slightly without the need to trim the sails (slight round up), and then he would draw the tiller back out away from centerline slowly to power back up. Sorry, if I sound like noob, but I am... and I learned something new. This reminds me of an inverted gas petal, lol. I think his goal was to get me to stop worrying about trimming the sails so much, and look at the finer adjustments to keep the boat moving at a steady pace.

This boat has been a huge project, and the first boat I have owned. The price to acquire it was right, however the amount of time and money that have gone into it to get it seaworthy... Well I would have never thought it would be this much, lol. After 6 months of hard work, it is finally paying off, as she is actually a solid boat. And that is very rewarding and makes it all worth it Now I am just trying to make it more fun to sail on and learn more. I originally asked questions about making the main sheeting and jib sheeting systems more efficient, along with Boom vang and purchase systems to get some ideas going, and have had allot of great discussion with everyone on this forum. I was just reporting back. Thanks again everyone!

[talbot]

So glad it's paying off. Except that I'm cranky and envious that you are sailing down south while our boat is sitting in the yard up in Oregon covered with rain-soaked slimy leaves. You guys didn't even get a catastrophic hurricane this year. It's not fair.

[klb67]

I share Talbot's frustration. I had to put my boat in storage over a month ago, and we've only had a few snow flakes here in Western PA so far, and many days in the 60s and 70s. It will be in the 20s soon though.

[DigitalMechanic]

Sounds like someone needs an excuse to take a vacation to Florida, lol. I never have... and still do not... like the cold. I stay inside when it is less than a frigid 70 degrees, lol. Well, I may be exaggerating a bit, but this is the right place for a warm blooded person me

As far as sailing climate goes, it really does not get cold until mid January... Sometimes February. I believe we have had many 80-90 degree Christmas days here over the years. Nothing like being outside playing with the kids on Christmas day, sweating to death. Then it warms up again in late March. Pretty minimal winter. Then the nicest months are May, April, October, and November, as it stays in the 70's and 80's. June, July, August, and September are just plain hot (and you just deal with it and run the risk of a heat stroke if you want to be outside). In my opinion, the best months for the water in Florida (keys and Bahamas for that matter) are October and November. It is still a very comfortable summer time temp, the water is still warm, but not blazing hot outside.

But then again you are correct... we could do without the catastrophic disasters produced by the hurricanes (AKA "Acts of God" as the insurance companies call it) that the Gulf waters attract. Don't worry, if you are disappointed we did not get clobbered by at least one hurricane this year, they will be back next year. They always are.

Now I feel like the state of Florida owes me a little $$ for this friendly solicitation, uhm I mean advertisement, lol.

If you ever find yourself in North East Florida, give me a shout. There is already a Daysailer here

[GreenLake]

Glad to hear you were enjoying your outing and got to try the DS a bit nearer its limits.

PS: Only advice from your friend that I would quibble with is the use of manual ratchets. I've been very happy with running mine in auto mode, and unlike manual transmissions (the point of which I totally get) the joy of remembering to adjust the ratchet settings to the wind conditions just escapes me.

[DigitalMechanic]

GL,

I think I would agree. His brain is probably a little more perceptive to that kind of thing. Like you said, think of a automatic transmission in a race car... It is probably not going to happen, lol. However, the less extra things I personally have to remember to fidget with, that would take away from my concentration on sailing, probably the better at this stage. So, instinct tells me I am with you on the auto ratchet. However, he happened to have a box full of blocks in the back of his truck that he has collected over the years. I think he wanted to use the manual ratchet mostly because it was simply an available block from his collection. Unfortunately he only had one on him and the jib cars require a pair. He said he is going to look through more of his stuff, so it may be that I end up inheriting a complimentary pair of manual ratchets before it is all said and done (and would be very grateful). If I have to purchase, I am definitely considering the auto ratchet route we have been discussing. We talked about so many things that I did not even ask, but I will double check with him to find out why he likes the manual ones just to be sure, just in case my perception is off. Thanks again for all the helpful info thus far! Just to validate... the placement of blocks and cleats we have been discussing since the original post seems to be not only desirable, but undeniably necessary for efficiency of sheeting Thanks for all your recommendations!

[TIM WEBB]

I flipped the cleat on the fiddle block attached to the center board trunk (if you go back a page or 2 I posted some pictures of it). There was discussion of this as a $$ saving alternative to purchasing a swivel base cam cleat that would allow the mainsheet to be un-cleated by pulling upwards. This mod, in my opinion, did not work out. This is because when reaching the cleat gets very vertical, and thus becomes auto-cleating again... in which the purpose of the mod was to eliminate (it used to face down and always cleated no matter the pull angle).

I tried to tell ya ... ;-P

Yesterday morning I was sailing back from BC38 to the ramps in some pretty gnarly conditions. Dunno for sure, but it had to be gusting to at least 25, with big chop in the ICW. Close to beam reach, one reef in the main, no jib, CB about halfway down, and some wx helm. Heartbeat was pegged, and I just kept reminding myself of a line from Master And Commander: we must survive this day! Every time a gust hit I just gave the mainsheet a tug and it popped outta the cleat easy-peasy, then an easy tug up to re-trim. Then I thought about this discussion, and again how glad I was to have that setup ...

[DigitalMechanic]

I tried to tell ya ... ;-P

I like it... It was windy on Sunday wasn't it? I am still not convinced that I want a downward facing cleat though. I am really wanting to make an upwards cleat work efficiently. I am going to give the swivel base cam cleat a shot

But yeah, the flipped cleat on the original fiddle block was less than optimal, lol. We were kicking the hell out of it when reaching. Kung fu sailor!

I would say all in all... We were much more violent, and annoyed with the jib cleats, trying to get that stubborn thing un-cleated in the gusts.

By the way, sailing on the fat part of the river... Is awesome!