Jib down haul

Moderator: GreenLake

Jib down haul

Postby Salty Dog » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:23 pm

Has anyone rigged a double line reverse purchase on the jib down haul to decrease the amount of line needed to be gathered in the cockpit. What size line 1/8"? any problems? How about 3 to 1? I think the forstay is 13' so 6 1/2' to down haul double and 4'+ for 3 to 1. Haven't started working on my boat yet. At work thinking about it. Trying to avoid trial and error. I have seen double line reverse purchase for spinnaker halyard for speed in hoisting as per GS Lolypop. Thanks SD
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby jeadstx » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:10 pm

I used 3/16" line for my downhaul. I use the excess line to tie around the jib while it is on deck. When I purchased the line, I lost my measurement sheet and guessed the length. Of coarse I guessed 6" short. Some adjustments were made.

Sent you a P.M.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby K.C. Walker » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:20 am

I haven’t rigged a down haul but I can see the appeal and may do it. I bought some 1/8 inch line because the jib comes down almost all away by itself, so it’s not going to need much help. I understand your desire to minimize line in the cockpit but it seems like you would just be trading clutter on the deck and cabin top., Or, do you have another plan for where to secure the down haul ? I’ve lately been thinking about line bags for halyards, maybe just an extra pocket for the down haul would do the trick.
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby Salty Dog » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:32 pm

Thanks john and KC

I have thought about it and I would like to put a jib down haul on my boat. I was thinking about having to gather 13+ ft of line, and I saw where Phill used a reverse purchase to hoist his spinnaker faster so I thought I could use it to limit the abount of line to be gathered. Double purchase would put the block about to the edge of the cuddy 6 1/2' and you could not use any fairleads to maintain the line because you would be dragging a 7/8" block back. So then I thought about a 3:1 purchase would be about 4+' and I could place a fairlead on the deck beside the cuddy top. I am on a job out of town so I do not know where 4 1/3' will put me. I thought I would ask if anyone on here had tried it and if it would work or if 3:1 would give you too much trouble. I had thought about thru the top and under the deck but I hate to put holes in my deck unless I'm sure about what I'm going to do. A jib down haul, a jib halyard tentioner, and barber in haulers is what i am going to do then practice for the wurstfest regatta comming up in November.
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby Breakin Wind » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:12 am

So, what about this... (please excuse my extremely crude digital sketch. I didn't have access to a proper drawing tool and drew this schematically rather than to anything approaching any scale. Blocks and lines are moved out and away for clarity.

1468

Why not put the reverse purchase downhaul vertically (or diagonally) on the luff, rather than across the deck horizontally.

In this drawing, the Jib is Yellow (just in case you couldn't recognize what that is...), The Mast, Deck and forestay are black and the Jib is shown deployed.
The Jib Halyard is in Blue as well as the halyard block up on the mast.

The Red line represents the downhaul, which is attached to the head of the Jib with along the halyard. The downhaul (red) comes down through the hanks to a turning block fixed to the deck (stemhead?), the downhaul line exits that block and through another turning block which will be movable, and from that block down to the deck where its tied off (again stemhead or equiv.) The movable block is attached to a topping lift (in my drawing I called it a downhaul halyard which I know was wrong, but couldn't remember the term topping lift) which is the green line. The green line runs up to a block above the jib halyard, and then back down to the deck.

During normal sailing, the green line is taut, keeping the red downhaul taut, and since they're on the luff, generally they should stay out of the way. The downhaul blocks are down at the tack point and should for the most part be out of the way and out of consideration.

To pull down the jib, the halyard (blue) is release, and the green line is pulled to draw up the red movable block, pulling the jib head down with less line in the cockpit.

So that's the idea anyway... Thanks - Scott
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby Salty Dog » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:20 pm

Hey Scott thats a great idea. I'll have to try that and see how it goes. I was thinking on the deck, I did not consider keeping it aloft.

thanks again SD
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:28 pm

Breakin Wind wrote:Why not put the reverse purchase downhaul vertically (or diagonally) on the luff, rather than across the deck horizontally.


The "why not", that is the downside of this idea is that you increase the "weight aloft". Might not matter too much, but there it is.

A./
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby Kleanbore » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:01 pm

The jib downhaul I have rigged could very easily be adapted to a 1:2 system. Pinned to the stemhead is a single block with becket (the type with stainless straps down both sides). The tack pins to the becket. I spliced an eye in 7/64" Amsteel which is attached to the jib halyard shackle. The Amsteel is led though each jib hank and through the sheave below the clew and then back to the cabin top cam cleat. To douse the jib, the halyard is pulled up out of the cleat and the downhaul is pulled down and cleated to the halyard cleat.

I could easily see this rig adapted to 2:1 by leaving a few inches of slack, splicing another eye below the block, rig a small single block between the single block with becket, pin the lower eye to the stationary block and lead a short line back to the cabin top. You would now have a system that would pull down 2 feet for every foot you tug.
Kerry Klingborg
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby Clyde » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:00 pm

I ran a 1/8 line up thru the hanks and tied it to the halyard. At the tack it runs thru a small block the back to the cockpit. I agree there is a lot of line (including halyards, boom vang) running into the cockpit but I simply tuck them all into a bag I've hung under the cuddy top. Keeps the unused (or occasionally used) lines out of the cockpit. Seems to work well for me.

I'm guilty of ovrthinking things. Tried a mocked up lazy jack system and it didn't make things easier - just more lines. I do have a topping lift that is adjustable at the end of the boom but I don't remove it when sailing. Doesn't seem to bother the sail.

I sail alone so I try to strike the balance between ease of handling and simplification. I also use a tiller tender which works for very short periods but balance is critical as I move around in the boat. I have a small electric trolling motor which helps keep the boat steady when I'm raising or lowering sails. Generally don't (or can"t) do this at the dock unless the wind is perfect and steady. I sail on a lake so winds are fluckey.

I'm a senior (76) who has sailed a variety of boats from Sunfish to cruisers. The Daysailer is a fun boat. Except for the effort of launching and retrieving on a trailer it has proved to be a good boat for me.

If any other oldsters have any suggestions or comments I'd love to hear.
Clyde Starr
DS1 #11354
"Downsized"
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby Salty Dog » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:43 pm

Hey Clyde

Yeh thats the way I was going to do mine and still may. I sail on a lake also but havn't sailed in 5 years and not had my DS on the water in over 10 years, so I'm just getting back in to it. I have not sailed my DS much since I had it, but after I found this web site I am really fired up about it. So it will be a learning and a re aclimating experience for me starting out. I'm gone on jobs a lot so I don't get to sail or do anything much. I am 62 and hopfully that situation will change soon, and I will get to do more of what I want to do. :wink:

Thanks for the reply SD
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby Salty Dog » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:08 pm

Hey Kleanbore

That was the way I had figured I would try it. But the block would come back 6 1/2 ft and that would put it at the cock pit . I wanted to contain the line with fairleads but the block would not pass thru them.

Scott had a good idea about rigging it aloft I thought. Green lake is right about weight aloft, but I don't think it would be any more weight than a spinnaker halyard. Thu it could be argued that a spinnaker is a better trade off for weight aloft thay a jib down haul. I still liked the idea of dropping the jib fast with a short line that does not clutter the deck and is not more trouble than it is worth to rig up each time. I know that is a tall order, and I also know that if it could be done someone on this site had tried it. :D
My other boat is bigger and has a roller furler. I have to gather 20'+ to furl the genoa on it so I could live with 13'.

I'm still planing on making the wurstfest regatta and raceing with yall, and seeing you on the lake this summer maybe. If you see me (sail# DS10809, or M222), flag me down and I'll "heave to" and we can compare notes.

thanks SD
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:05 pm

If you rig this line with 7/64" Amsteel or the 1.7mm or 3 mm Dingy control line from FSE Robline (or something equivalent) then the added weight would be quite limited, and the diameters small enough to not really add windage. So, something like Scott's system could work. I would still not rig one, because I'd be too cheap to spring for the extra line and blocks. :)
Also, I must say, I haven't encountered a scenario where I needed a downhaul, but I'm blessed with having somewhat sheltered docks and launches at my favorites spots.

If I were to rig any system, I would use a 1:1 downhaul and tie the free end to the clew. That way, the entire line would be parallel to the sail when sailing (clew to block at the tack to head). I can usually manage to reach the clew of the jib by pulling it toward me with a sheet - that should work even with a bit of wind when the halyard is dropped, so I could just reach there, grab the downhaul, pull down the sail and tie the line off at some convenient point. Instead of using a block, it might be sufficient to run the line for the downhaul through the eye splice on the tack.

Anyway, after some reflection, that would be the kind of minimalist approach I would take. It would work well for the cases where I really need a downhaul, which is for temporary sail storage on deck when I'm docked or anchored somewhere for a short period and don't want to take the sail off, or have it blowing around.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby Salty Dog » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:23 pm

GL

That would work and no blocks and no clutter on deck. I may try that first. If I don't like it I can always start buying stuff. (My hobbies I tend to splurge on). I don't know for sure I would need a down haul either.
I was just trying to set my boat up to do everything from the cockpit and not have to go forward. A down haul is the only way to force the jib all the way to the deck in high wind.

I am a fair weather sailer. but I have been out more times than I wished when the fair weather did not hold out.
Once in my DS not long after I bought it My girlfriend and I were on a small lake down by the dam. when we noticed a storm blowing up I told her we better head in, which was at the other end of the lake. same lake, same girlfriend, same boat as another story.

we were headed straight towards the storm and the wind was blowing into the storm so we were on a broad reach headed into a bend in the lake. We got to the bend about the same time that the wind changed from blowing into the cloud to blowing out of the cloud, and it was blowing hard. we made the bend and was running almost down wind. We were hauling with a capital H. I pulled the centerboard up and told my g/f to come to the back of the boat. we were wing and wing. and I could sware that we were up on plane. but I knew there was no way. Untill I read in this site that the DS would plane out I thought it was not possible.

When you are running with the wind you don't realize how much it is blowing because you are going the same way. At the far end of the run was a swimming beach with sand (Every where else was rocks or docks. I told my g/f I was headding for the beach and when we got there I would head up a little to port and beach and to pop the jib sheet and I would pop the main. the storm was breathing down our necks like a stampede of buffalo with a very cold breath. all the swimmer had ran for cover so we had the beach to our selves.

We got about 15' from the beach and we poped the sheets and headed up and came to a stop and then we could feel how hard it was blowing. My sails were flapping like storm flags. We uncleaded the haulyards and started dragging down dacron. Busy as a tumble bug at a rodeo. Got it secured pulled the boat up a little more on the beach and set down on the lewered side and waited for the rain.

As it turned out it did not even rain. In 30 min it was a sunny day just right for sailing.

I was just thinking how nice it would be to be able to drop and secure the jib from the cockpit. In case I didn't have a beach next time.
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:43 pm

Salty Dog wrote:I was just thinking how nice it would be to be able to drop and secure the jib from the cockpit. In case I didn't have a beach next time.


Sure. I tend to balance the cost of rigging something every time I set up the boat, against likely use cases. (*)

I've never not felt secure standing in the front of the cockpit (absence of significant waves in all my sailing areas may have something to do with that) and from there, I can reach quite far, but not to the forestay, of course.

The (sole) time I struck the jib while on open water because I wanted to reduce sail, I managed to get enough of it down by pulling on the fabric. That's why I think I should be able to reach (or snag with a hook) a line along the foot like I sketched.

I also think that I wouldn't lose much by trying this simple method first, because the worst I could lose is the investment in about 20' of 2mm line (with most of it recovered if I use it for lanyards and other purposes).

*) I tend to rig the reef line nearly every time - I've been caught out on the water when I wanted to set the reef and it wasn't rigged. Luckily, the need to have it was more of convenience (easier sailing) than true necessity and I was able to rig it on the water, but something I'd rather not repeat too often - the inconvenience much exceeds that of not having a reverse 2:1 downhaul. :oops: :oops:
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Jib down haul

Postby Salty Dog » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:17 pm

I'm not sure what the best thing to do is if caught running down wind with too much sail out, and no motor. In my other boat I could furl the genoa in fire the mtr up pull around to the wind and take a reef in the main fall off, let the genoa out a little bit and go on. Of course I would not be sweating a knock down either in that boat. It would have been fun if I knew what I was doing and not worried about pitch poleing. :D
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