Lee helm

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Re: Lee helm

Postby jeadstx » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:21 pm

I think the full length mast are usually only on the DS1. The DS2's have the flotation tank flooring inside the cuddy cabin. My DS2 has a compression post below the cuddy cabin floor to the keel. On top of that is the lower mast section with the lower half of the tabernacle hinge plate.

If the mast was cut a little short after a dismasting, you could get a mast section to make a new lower section that is a little longer than the original section that is between the cuddy floor and extends just above the cuddy top. That would allow keeping the stay tangs where they are on the mast and be able to standard length stays.

I'm dealing with a similar situation on a Rhodes 19 that I'm restoring. I aquired a hinged mast (same setup as a DS hinged mast) for the boat. I have to make the section that goes from the base of the mast to the "king plank" where the Rhodes 19 mast tabernacle is normally mounted for a full length mast. I will have to adjust the lower section until I get the stays to fit right.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Lee helm

Postby Tipster1 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:06 pm

Wow. It never occurred to me that the DS did not come originally with a cabin top tabernacle. I just assumed that it was standard. The manual I got on-line vaguely implies that it may have been an option.

Previous owner believes he only lost 3/4" in mast height in his repair. If I can verify this by actual measurement, why not insert a 3/4" shim of something solid (marine plywood wrapped in resin and a layer of glass or even glassed in comes to mind) under lower mast section in the cuddy. Or on top of lower mast section under lower tabernacle plate. Wouldn't this be easier (and less expensive) than replacing lower section?

We hope to go back to beach by Friday to clarify things.

Difference between short board windsurfing and day-sailing make them complimentary. Although the DS might be interesting over 15kts it would scare my mate silly, even though she is actually comfortable on a board up to 20kts. I am happy up to about 25. Light air windsurfing can be fun, but I prefer to sit if I am not planing.
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Re: Lee helm

Postby K.C. Walker » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:19 pm

Epi is totally rot resistant so I just put it down with four screws into the keelson.

I had the ride of my lifetime on a short board windsurfer in 25 kn of breeze once. It was definitely above my skill level, though. I've had the DaySailer up planing and thinking I was really moving, only to have somebody on a windsurfer pass me like I was standing still. It's a different kind of fun. They really are complementary.
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Re: Lee helm

Postby Tipster1 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:58 am

Got it. Does cuddy top actually bear any weight or does mast functionally slide through it?

Reading Roger Conrad's book is giving me all sorts of other projects for the future. It's phenomenal.
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Re: Lee helm

Postby K.C. Walker » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:20 am

The tabernacle should not be bearing any weight on the cuddy roof. If it looks like yours is, or is close to doing so, I would shim it at the cuddy floor to raise it up.
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Re: Lee helm

Postby Tipster1 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:51 pm

Finally at the shore and can see things more clearly. Lower mast section is 26 1/8, upper section from tabernacle to bottom edge of top fitting is 260 3/4. Add 1.5" for tabernacle and I get 288 3/8 = 24', 3/8". Roger Conrad's book only gives maximum heights. By these, mast is 6" short, which can't be right or side stays wouldn't even be close. Does anyone have original mast length information?

As I now see it, if I wanted to lift mast a little, I could remove cast base fitting from floor of cockpit, insert a shim, and re-install base fitting, going through same holes with appropriately longer screws. Question is what kind of screws are these and where do they go?

BUT, my main concern is that it appears that the fore stay stem fitting has been moved aft about 1/2" and re mounted using pretty two hefty screws. There is a small hole just at the front edge of the fitting. There is no access port in front bulkhead. I haven't been able to reach the seller to find out exactly what he did. How were these fittings originally attached? :(
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Re: Lee helm

Postby GreenLake » Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:52 am

Some DS have the stem fitting bolted into a threaded metal plate. There seem to be variations of methods, so you'd best find someone who has the same model year (approx same sail number) or someone who knows their way around many of the variations.

There have been instances of stemhead failures, wonder whether that's what's behind the modification on your boat.
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Re: Lee helm

Postby Tipster1 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:42 am

thx for reply. Stem head failure occurred when previous owner drove boat on trailer into power line with mast up. It was traumatic.
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Re: Lee helm

Postby K.C. Walker » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:59 am

Don't be too concerned about the total length of the mast. Apparently they varied quite a bit. The maximum amount of mast that you are allowed to use in class racing is 22.5 feet measured from the cabin top to the bottom of the top casting. There are measurements for the racing rules here http://forum.daysailer.org/pdf/dsbylaw3.pdf . I think that it would be fine just to shim the lower mast section and move on. Unless you see evidence of the shroud tangs having been moved on the mast, I would think that they are original.

My original stem head fitting broke under sail one day… That was exciting! It was still held on by one bolt, though. When I went to replace it, I bought a stem head fitting from Rudy at D & R, who is quite the authority on these boats. He said that all of the DaySailer's had a threaded insert that one bolted into for the stem head… Well not mine, but mine was made at Can-Am, not at the O'Day facility. Now, if yours has been moved, all bets are off and you really need to find out how it was repaired. If it is indeed screws and not through bolted I would not trust that. Also, really look carefully to see if the hull to deck joint wasn't compromised visibly. I think that it's pretty likely that if they didn't tear the deck off driving under the power lines, it's already been stress tested and the weak point was the stem head attachment.
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Re: Lee helm

Postby Tipster1 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:04 pm

Thanks again for reply. We are recovering from 1.5 hrs of windsurfing in 18-25mp winds and feel like overcooked pasta.

The deck to hull junction is intact. Our boat is a September, 1975 model from the O’Day factory so I guess it is safe to assume there is a metal backing plate under the deck somewhere. The prior owner re-attached stem head with some hefty looking stainless screw so I assume he would have hit the backing plate when he re-installed stem-head unless the plate just fell away. That’s why I need to get more specifics from him about what he really did and what he felt when he replaced the screws though the fore-deck. He might have driven a screw right into the plate. Maybe he even drilled and tapped it. Otherwise, I guess I have no choice but to install an inspection port, dig out the foam, and have a look. From what I have found in the blogs you can certainly install an inspection port in forward bulkhead, but it sounds like someone actually put a port in the fore deck! Any advice?

Regarding installing mast step lifting shim, I just want to understand how fitting in which lower mast sits is attached to cuddy floor. It looks like it is just screwed in place. What kind of screws are these and into what material are they attached? What precautions should I take if I remove them, insert shim and replace them?

I am considering getting a nylon cutting board and cutting it to the right shape. Then I can layer it up as many times as I want. Cheap and indestructible. What do you all think?

Mark V
Hull # 7303
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Re: Lee helm

Postby K.C. Walker » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:36 pm

The cutting board should work perfectly. There's not much force other than straight down at the base of the mast stub. What small amount of sheer load there would be should be taken care of by making sure that your holes through your shim are snug. If you can use the same size screws, only longer (if needed), to go through the shim, that should work, I would think.

Hopefully someone with a DS2 will chime in on inspection ports and stem head repair. I've got a DS1, so don't quite know the particulars.

Sounds like it was excellent windsurfing!
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Re: Lee helm

Postby Tipster1 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:07 am

Thanks for advice. I'll post question on DSII board and see if someone is familiar with anatomy of my boat. In DS I are the screws large wood or sheet metal style screws? I assume they are SS.
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Re: Lee helm

Postby K.C. Walker » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:23 am

Absolutely stainless, and bolts not screws. The idea of the threaded metal insert was that you wouldn't need nuts, which obviously would be a pain to deal with up in the pointy end, which it was for me. On the DS1 the bulkhead already has some openings, and in most boats is removable, still getting up there is awkward. I ended up making a contraption out of a skinny board to hold the nut out at the end and feeding it through the bulkhead opening. I had someone else install the Phillips head bolts from the top. To tighten them I taped a wrench to the end of the same skinny board while the other person tightened them from the outside. I used a nylox nut. In retrospect I don't know why I didn't tape the nut to the inside of a box end wrench and tape that to the end of a board, probably because I didn't have one at the time. Also, I think though it wouldn't look as neat, I would go with hex head bolts if you need to tighten nuts on the inside because it's hard to get enough torque on a Phillips head.
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Re: Lee helm

Postby Tipster1 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:59 am

Boy, you're up early. Sorry to be confusing you,, but for the moment I am studying insertion of mast base shim until I hear more from former boat owner about stem head repair he did. So, regarding shimming mast step, what kind of screws are these holding step in boat? Machine screws (bolts) seem unlikely. I am assuming sheet metal.

Wind yesterday afternoon was 20, gusting to 25. EEEEEEEEEEE!
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Re: Lee helm

Postby K.C. Walker » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:18 am

Yes, maybe to early to see straight. On the mast step, yes stainless, and they call them sheet-metal screws. Likely there is a West Marine somewhere nearby and they have a decent inventory of stainless fasteners.

On the windsurfing, sounds about perfect.… Those are the kind of days that keep you going through the winter, until the next time.
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