Help rigging mainsheet

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Help rigging mainsheet

Postby bnnauti » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:58 pm

Looking for some help on how the properly rig my 17' Spindrift DS setup for mid-boom sheeting. I think it's a 3:1 block system with the swivel cam cleat on the aft end of the centerboard trunk. The boom aft end only has an internal pulley I assume is for the outhaul to run back up the boom and out through a long oval slot just before (aft) the mid-boom bail/set-up. I see no way to attach any type traverler or bridal system as the port and starboard stern areas only have fixed cleats. There is a bale mounted to the boom at a 45 deg angle about 18" from gooseneck-end of the boom which tells me someone may have once used a boom vang. But there is no place at or near the tabernacle or mast base (top of the cuddy) to attach one.

I'm new to sailing, have had this boat out about four times, and have gotten a little worried with gusts really lifting the boom and making it very hard to both tighten and loosen the mainsheet while tacking or jibbing. While making every attempt to sail only in light wind, I have been caught 3 out of 5 times trying to tack or jib back with only the jib sail. Could really use some suggestion from those having been here.

Thanks for any help.
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:02 am

This was originally double posted, reviving two older threads. Double posting a query will not really cause twice as many people to provide twice as many useful answers. It just confuses people where to leave a reply and where to follow the conversation. It also makes more work for your moderator. :wink:

Because the new discussion is likely to be specific to the Spindrift, at least in parts, I've made the query into it's own new thread and deleted the duplicate.

Here are the links to the old threads so people can follow up with what had been discussed in earlier years on this topic
Main Sheet Rigging and
Traveler System.

There are a number of additional useful discussions around this topic. Rather than reviving every one of them, why not add a link here.
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:38 am

I see that you asked your question already last year.

I don't have the photos that you were asking for in 2013, but here are some possible suggestions:

For the end of the boom you should be able to purchase a U bail and through-bolt that to the end of the boom. You can then fit the end boom block to that.
Image
(as found on APS at http://apsltd.com)

Alternatively, you could duplicate the setup I found on my boat. The boom on my '63 DS has a flat end-boom fitting with a large hole in the center. Through that goes a 3/4" SS bolt. It holds a SS strap (one hole for the bolt, one for the shackle connecting the block). The strap can rotate so it aligns with the direction of the pull, achieving the same effect as a U bail. If your boom has an end cap you can drill out, that would be an alternative.

If you click on this thumbnail, you can see the strap at the end of the boom.
1760

For fitting a vang to the mast, fit an eye-strap at the front end, right above the tabernacle. Use a loop of Amsteel around the base of the mast (and through the strap). On the aft side of the mast, attach the vang to the loop.
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby bnnauti » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:58 pm

Truly sorry to be a nag on this, but I just don't completely understand what modification would be best to make on this boat. It appears to me the Spindrift manual depicts mid-boom sheeting with the connection to a traveler. Several people have suggested that a boom vang would be better (if limited to one or the other). The traveler arrangement appears to be a little harder for me to grasp using it single handed and having to move up to the cuddy to adjust the jib. I tried sailing with both last week and affixed a temp traveler and did not feel I could even raise the jib in the light wind.

I am including some images of my boom end to show the internal pulley I can only imagine is for running the outhaul down inside the boom and out of the slot by the mainsheet block. I do appreciate the images and the details shown on your boom. I know I want to add a topping lift, but 3:1 mainsheet block seems inadequate in even moderate wind. I took on quite a bit of water on my 3rd sail when I could not release the mainsheet tension (pulling down out of the cam cleat) soon enough while my son loosened the jib sheet. I would think a strong boom vang (more than 4:1) would put a lot of torque on the boom if not handled properly and sometimes quickly? Not sure what direction to take here. Thanks for the help.

boom1.jpg
this is the slot in the boom I've run the outhaul through
boom1.jpg (61.78 KiB) Viewed 9044 times

boom2.jpg
I have a small block temporarily hang with a ty-rap
boom2.jpg (65.86 KiB) Viewed 9044 times

boom3.jpg
another boom end image
boom3.jpg (54.91 KiB) Viewed 9044 times
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:19 pm

Your middle image (despite the caption) seems to show the center boom block. It is hung from a boom bail. You could rivet a similar bail at the end of the boom or through-bolt a U-bail like the one I posted earlier. Either one would work.

If you use a ratchet block instead of your center boom block, then you don't need to cleat the main sheet and can hold it in your hand. I use a Ronstan 55mm Orbit ratchet block set to auto ratchet. In a recent review in Practical Boat Owner it was shown to have double the holding power of other blocks for the same purpose. More holding power means that the pull on the mainsheet from the sail has to be double to overcome the force you apply on the working end of the sheet. Because the ratchet feature engages automatically, your sheet will run free whenever you don't provide tension on the working end. One downside of the strong holding power is that the block will chafe the sheet. While the effect is visible, it's not something that worries me - it will take several more seasons before I need to swap my main end-over-end because of that, and even longer for a full replacement.

The key point is that with a ratchet block you separate the effort of trimming (making an adjustment, short term pull) from the effort of holding (long term pull). I find that I cleat the main a lot less with the ratchet block and that holding it in my hand for handling gusts in higher winds is feasible and no longer as tiring.

One upgrade I would make is to switch your swivel cleat so it releases up, not down. I still use the original swivel block that came with my DS and it releases by pulling up. It is not any harder to cleat it, but definitely much easier to uncleat it. With other swivels I've found myself "trapped" with not being able to position my hands in a way that I could pull the main out of the cleat.

1832

Now, let's discuss purchase.

First, if you pull in the middle of the boom you will need to pull twice as hard for the same effect as when you pull at the end of the boom. If you currently have a 4:1 center boom purchase, that's equivalent to a 2:1 end boom purchase. A 6:1 at the center would be the same as 3:1 at the end of the boom.

Mine is a 2.5:1 at the end or 5:1 center equivalent. There's a 2:1 purchase at the end of the boom, and then, the mainsheet when it comes from the middle of the boom to the CB trunk swivel block again pulls with the same force downward, but this time at the center (or half the lever arm). Hence 2.5:1 -- or 5:1 center boom equivalent.

If, as you report, your current setup is 3:1 at the center, then switching to the layout that I describe would gain you in overall purchase. Add a ratchet block into the mix, and you'll be surprised how much more "user-friendly" the system becomes.

In terms of "moving up to the cuddy" -- for fore-aft balance you want to sit rather further forward in the DS than you might think at first. It's really tempting to sail the DS while sitting far in the back, but when you do that you submerge your transom, dragging it through the water with the effect of increased drag. (Sailing with the parking brake on). If you had a mid-cockpit traveler, then when single handing you'd sit forward of it.

A 4:1 vang would be useful in controlling the height of the boom when reaching and running. For upwind, if you have an aft traveler (bridle), that may be sufficient. It depends on your style of sailing. Upgrading a vang after you've gained some experience with a 4:1 system might be a good route to go. That way, if you are happy, you can forgo the upgrade.

Finally, a topping lift. As the topping lift is usually loose while under way you can wrap the end around the horn cleat you have at the end of the boom when you need it. (In really light winds a topping lift that can be left engaged might give some advantages, but I wouldn't let that consideration drive the setup unless it's a common occurrence where you sail).
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby bnnauti » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:59 pm

Thank you Greenlake. I know you are giving me a wealth of info and I'm beginning to get it. I you sailing with a bit more experienced sailor and he has used a traveler sheet-up but not a vang. I'm still unsure if a situation could develop where I could bend the boom with a 6:1 or greater vang and no traveler system in high winds. Think I may try a traveler arrangement first as I like the thought of end boom control and the purchase ratio's pointed out.

I will have to make some modifications to the boom end and I'm still unsure. I found an image matching the internal roller I tried to depict that was used for a topping lift run back and out through the slot and cleated at mid-boom.

Another issue I have is the jib. I believe mine is a little too big for the front stay as I must cleat it at the first grommet/hank for it to be tight, and the bottom drgs on the deck a bit. It's like I need to have 3-4 inches taken off. I have been trying to use it pulled in tight to one of two Ronstan swivel camcleats mounted on the top of the cuddy. This is too close in to the center and doesn't allow me to tension the jib in much. I've got some images here of other boats with this set up:
camcleats.jpg
camcleats.jpg (44.61 KiB) Viewed 8969 times


It seems I should purchase a couple of fairleads and route the jib sheet wider and perhaps add new or relocate these to the coming for single-handed capability? Would like you opinion on this.

Thanks.
Robert
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:34 am

Having the jib sweep the foredeck can be a design feature. Mine was delivered that way, but the luff matches the length of the forestay. The foot, instead of being straight, curves down to meet the deck before continuing on to the clew. By practically closing the gap between sail and deck, there is reduced leaking of pressure from the windward to the leeward side of the sail. That should make the sail more efficient. Anyway, that's the theory.

Your case sounds different. Now the question is, is it your sail that's too big or your forestay that's too short. A possible cause for the former is that you are using a sail that's not originally a DS jib, but something that's "close" from another boat. A possible cause for the latter could be that someone had to shorten your mast; that can be the result of some damage to the mast step. Occasionally, the "repair" would be to trim the mast down to the undamaged part, at which point the stays would have to be shortened.

It would be good to measure the forestay and to check whether jib and main are from the same sailmaker (assuming that the main is for the DS and carries the DS class logo).

A third cause might be that for some reason you are not raising your jib all the way. For example, if you use a big shackle on your jib halyard, or if you tie it on with a big bowline, then that put the head of the sail 2-3 inches below the block. On mine, I made sure to use a very compact knot for the jib halyard.

Normally, of a DS, the jib fairleads are mounted on the inside sides of the cockpit, some short distance behind the cuddy. They are usually on tracks so that you can adjust their fore/aft positions a bit. That location is a bit too far off-center for maximal pointing, so that people rig Barber haulers. Those are lines ending in a block that are used to pull the jib sheet inboards a bit, about the location of the cleats on you last picture.

The problem with fixed cleats at that location is that they are not optimally placed for light or strong winds (they should be fine for moderate/good winds), nor are they in a good position for reaching or going downwind. But, at least, you should be able to sail with them initially.
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby bnnauti » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:49 pm

I'll have to measure the main and downstay to verify, but the shortening could make sense. The main sail is certainly a DS sail and seems fitted well. The jib is a McKibben and seems a very good sail, but I sure feel it's a little too big. The boat was purchased with damage that had been repaired rather sloppily around the tabernacleI took it off this spring and repaired it better and found I had to slightly build-up one side of the mounting area a bit. It employs the slotted, fixed bracket the pin across the boom base slips into when stepping the mast. Not sure I can tell there was any shortening or damage there. The jib halyard certainly pulls the sheet all the way up to the top of the front shroud stay.

The sailor I was with Friday confirmed the jib is pulled in too close to center with the swivel cam cleats (I showed these in the other post on various DS's like mine). He sent images of his set-up that make more sense to me as I could not even think of handling the jib sheet mounted on top of the cuddy as mine is. I'm including images of his....a similar boat.
jib cleat.jpg
jib cleat.jpg (51.76 KiB) Viewed 8937 times



I don't know if I should remove the cuddy deck mounted swivels, but I can't think they would be used for halyards or anythink else. But attempting to tighten the jib to these current positions seem to bring it into the centerline too much?

Robert
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:59 pm

Robert,

here are pictures of my setup, just to give you an idea.
946823

The first picture shows the jib track at the side of the cockpit. In lighter winds, one would move the car back. You can also see the Barber hauler (white), although it's kind of difficult to see that it ends in a block through which is lead the jibsheet (green).

The second picture shows how the barber haulers are cleated. There are two such cleats, and what is not shown is that the two lines cross: doing this moves each cleat closer to the upwind position where it's easier to reach. Some people use V cleats mounted on the cuddy top so that the tails of the line run towards the windward side, something to consider if you have a "lip" at your cuddy edge (I don't, it's flat, so anything I let lie on top will fall down anyway, so mine are rigged to be pulled down). By pulling down on the tails, the barber haulers move the jib sheet in (it's like having a track that's mounted sideways). When pointing high with moderately strong winds (say 8-11 knots) the maximum these should be pulled in is to 18" from the center line. In low winds (<5) and downwind, they are let out fully. In light, but not very light winds, and as the wind gets heavier, you would let them out partially.

18181034

The third picture shows the upgrade of the jib car to a ratchet block (Ronstan Orbit 55mm) which makes it easier to hold the sheet when under load.

The fourth picture shows the jib sheets cleated on the centerboard trunk. The cleats are angled a bit, so they are in line with the pull on the sheet. Some people use a bar across the cleats which makes the sheet captive. This is something I don't like - I like being able to grab the sheet close to the block and then cleat it, rather than always having to pull from the windward side only.

The cuddy mounted cleats that you have could be used
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:25 pm

Here's another image of the cleats on the cuddy.
1841
The image shows only the starboard side. Shown are the port side Barber hauler lead to the windward cleat (black) on the starboard side, and the Spinnaker halyard (yellow cleat).
There's also a horn cleat that came with the boat and may have once been intended for a halyard cleat. (Those are now on the side of the mast, as seen in an earlier picture - I see little use, in a boat as small as the DS, to lead the halyards to the cockpit...).

Also visible near the bottom of the image is the the starboard side barber hauler. The photo was taken with the haulers slack (the lines point down; when they are tight, the tension brings the haulers horizontal).
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby rnlivingston » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:34 pm

1842

Although I do not own this Daysailer , the swivel cam on a track I found to be the best system for trimming the jib. One of the best racers in our club uses this system.
Roger Livingston
DS 6872
Mariner 4096
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby bnnauti » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:48 pm

Wow. Thank you both, Greenlake and Roger. I'm still trying to determine just the modifications I want to make and try first. Do you think it too restrictive to incorporate fairleads for some deflection and mount the cam cleats even farther down toward the centerboard? I'm not sure what the barber hauler is but it seems smart to allow the tensioning cleat to slide for repositioning.

Robert
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Re: Help rigging mainsheet

Postby GreenLake » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:49 am

The location of your fairleads is not something that you can choose freely.

They determine the direction in which the jib-sheet tensions the jib.

That, in turn, defines the sail shape.

If you move your fairleads aft, the pull will be more horizontal. As result, there will be less leech tension and the top of your jib will twist off, spilling wind. That's something that you might want in high winds (as well as in very light winds, but there, not because you like to spill wind, but because the wind will change angle as you move up from the water's surface.

Conversely, as you move your fairleads forward, the pull will be more vertical, with more leech tension. Too much leech tension is as undesirable as too little. In light to moderate winds the way you trim your jib is to move the fairleads fore and aft until, as you luff up, the top and bottom half of the sail begin to break at the same time. Unless your sail was cut by the sailmaker for a different setup, the location of the jib tracks should be more or less what I show in my picture. The range of adjustment is also typical.

The inhauls have a different effect. Their purpose is to allow a tighter sheeting angle, that is, the angle of the sail to the centerline of the boat becomes narrower. I moderate winds, that allows you to point just a bit higher. Again, in strong and very light winds (and going downwind) you don't use them. For going dead downwind you might, instead, use a whisker pole to move the jib even further out.
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