Rope for various lines

Moderator: GreenLake

Re: Rope for various lines

Postby K.C. Walker » Fri May 22, 2015 9:42 am

Tim, I believe that the fiber is all the same stuff, UHMWPE. It's just brand names.

Greenlake, I think the natural color of the stuff is gray and the colored lines are dyed with something that does not last. The blue lines that I have turned somewhat gray, but are in good shape otherwise...
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby TIM WEBB » Fri May 22, 2015 10:01 am

Correct, Spectra and Dyneema are brand names (Honeywell and DSM Dyneema B.V. respectively). Just wasn't sure what Amsteel was made of, but it looks like it's Dyneema:

http://www.wesspur.com/rope/amsteel-blue.html

"Samson AmSteel-Blue is an incredible high-strength rope made to replace steel cable in winches. AmSteel-Blue offers impressive strength but is so lightweight it will float in water. This incredible strength to weight ratio comes from AmSteel-Blue's 12 strand Dyneema SK-75 fiber construction. Amsteel is easy to splice with a class 2 12 strand splice; you can quickly splice it right in the field."
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby K.C. Walker » Fri May 22, 2015 10:08 am

Talbot,

I don't use continuous sheets, so they are tails in the cockpit. And yes, too much line underfoot. The sheet line that I chose is New England Ropes Buzz Line which is single braid polypropylene 8mm for the main and 7 mm for the jib and UPS. It's not splicable but it does feel good in hand, is lightweight (so less need for tapered sheets), relatively inexpensive, holds well in cleats and ratchet blocks, is amazingly tangle free, and has held up well. Also, because it is single braid and very supple, it runs through blocks very well and has low internal friction.

The lightweight pennant from the sheets to the jib and UPS in effect does the same thing as tapered sheets and is easy to do yourself. However, it has the benefit of the sheets being continuous at that point with no knots at the jib clue, so more snag resistant.

I don't need sailing gloves for the main and jib, but of course they are nice. However, I do need gloves for the UPS.
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby GreenLake » Fri May 22, 2015 3:08 pm

Amsteel is Dyneema, as you found out. There are some minor variations on the fiber, that's why they specifically refer to SK-75. Samson ropes seem to be stocked by everyone locally, so that's why I've been using them as opposed to any other brand. For strength, the fiber matters, for splicing, the construction. Whatever you used must have the same 12-strand braid, which is super-easy to splice.
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby tc53 » Sat Jul 23, 2016 11:05 am

K.C., I'm looking to replace my old jib sheets, and I am thinking of the New England Robes Buzz Line you mentioned. The 7 mm (9/32) size is slightly smaller than the 5/16 specified in the technical specs listed on the DS site. Have you (and your crew) found this smaller size to be okay on the hands?
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby GreenLake » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:12 pm

@tc. I can't imagine that that 1/32" difference is something that you can necessarily feel. If the Bzzz line is grippy, then it might work as well as a slightly larger diameter line from a different material. The Bzzz line is made from a mix of fibers including polypropylene and polyester. Of the two, polypropylene is not as "slick", so this mix should slip less than a pure polyester rope. Also, the single braid may be more 'bumpy" and therefore easier to grip.

But totally aside from that, you can easily get 8mm Bzzz line. That would match the 5/16" and would provide you with an extra margin. I don't think there's a reason against upsizing, as long as the new diameter fits your blocks.

As you've seen above, I run with a ridiculously overdimensioned jib sheet, because I found the perfect length at a clearance sale. It's really too smooth and slippery (and too heavy, being intended for seriously loaded applications on bigger boats), but it works fine. I did find that the addition of ratchet blocks for the jib sheet does make a difference.
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby K.C. Walker » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:51 pm

I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner on this one.

Yes, the 7 mm has been fine. Nice attributes of the Bzzz line are that it feels soft in your hand as compared to double braid (so smaller is not as much a problem). It has much lower internal friction as compared to double braid which is especially noticeable if you are using the small original blocks. It is noticeably less tangle prone. If you are using ratchet blocks its holding up fine with mine and it releases very smoothly and grips well because it stays around. It doesn't soak up water so it stays light. All that and it's reasonably priced. I would definitely buy it again.
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby GreenLake » Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:26 am

Just an update. There's a new line on my boat, a leech line. I had to add that to my jib, because, with advancing age, the leech started to flutter. I used something ridiculously thin at 1.5mm line (Excel Racing from Marlow) but still plenty strong for the purpose (139lbs breaking strength).

As described in my other thread, this is no more than a temporary band-aid, and some people suggested alternatives.
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby Shagbark » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:38 pm

I don't believe anyone has discussed the centerboard control lines. I'm thinking minimal stretch with good UV protection is necessary but don't know what size. I'm using something pretty small now, possibly 3/32, breaking strength, I believe, is not an issue?
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby talbot » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:27 pm

Actually, the downhaul should probably be nylon (stretchy) unless you have a breakaway downhaul cleat or a shock-cord link. I think I have 5/16" nylon on the downhaul (West Marine twisted nylon), and 1/4" polyester (New England Sta-Set X) on the uphaul. The loads these lines are subjected to are not great, but it's nice to have lines large enough to grip easily and that work will with their cleats. On my boat, both lines run to small Ronstan cam cleats.
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby GreenLake » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:05 pm

Talbot, totally agree that handling is a factor in sizing these, but there is another issue: you want the lines to be thick enough that they do not slip too easily between CB and trunk - or perhaps so thin that they can't wedge themselves... The length of these lines is not long enough for even stretchy material to allow the CB to absorb the shock of a hard grounding. An auto-release cleat would be the safest bet.

Shagbark: I did not discuss these, because my DS1 doesn't have them.

My CB (operated by handle) can at times require significant force to move (so much that newbie crew of slighter build often reports it as "stuck'). If that's the same for a typical DS2 CB, then you'd definitely want a line that's easy to grip.
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby talbot » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:02 pm

The portion of the pennant on a DS II that is a threat to jamming is the uphaul cable between the board and the through-hull into the cuddy. That portion of the system is always (as far as I know) 1/8" flexible stainless cable. That is the part that is slack when the board is down, and it is usually tensioned (now that we all know about the problem) with a bungee at the base of the mast. (The downhaul cable is either a thick rope or a cable that comes out diagonally or vertically through the CB trunk. Because it pulls up, it is less likely to foul.)

But Greenlake's comment suggests that a DSII owner might minimize the danger of CB jamming by switching to Dyneema or Spectra inside the trunk. The line would be strong enough at almost any diameter, but it is possible the thicker line would be less likely to jam. In any case, these ropes are really slippery, so they should be easier to free. You would need a really good splice around a thimble at the board. The fibers are stronger than steel at the same diameter, but I don't think they could take the abrasion around the hole in a standard Dwyer tang from D&R. Maybe use jacketed line around the thimble, have bare Dyneema or Spectra core inside the trunk (for slippiness' sake), and use a jacketed tail through the purchase blocks in the cuddy and out into the cockpit to the belay point. That is, the whole pennant could be one piece, avoiding the clunky cable-to-rope connection on the cuddy floor.
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby GreenLake » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:18 pm

There's also the design where one of them is split with the other one going between the two strands.

Just because the discussion of DSII CB mechanics is easily able devour any thread it touches :) , I ask that further discussion of how best to rig it be placed in a dedicated thread in the DS2 section of the forum. If substantial agreement is reached on the best choice of rope, it can be reported back here (with a link).
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby talbot » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:23 pm

How true. One person's trunk is another's Pandora's Box.
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Re: Rope for various lines

Postby GreenLake » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:59 am

Since my last post, I rigged a boom vang: 6:1 with a 2:1 cascade for a combined 12:1 purchase.

I used the same 3/16" line as for the traveler (earlier post above) and spinnaker sheets for the cascade.

I used the same line as I had for my original outhaul/reefline for the block&tackle part (don't know whether I listed that rope anywhere, it's a bit thinner, 1/8" or something metric, and distinctly "knobbly" if someone can help me locate a brand). Very easily gripped in cleats.

Both choices based largely on what I had available, but the rope used for the cascade is stiffer and that works for the cascade part.

2328
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