Need ideas for the Running Rigging

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Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby jsbowman6 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:14 pm

Having come from the O'Day 22 (and felt, I was a pretty good sailor) I feel this little daysailer is kicking my butt!

I think I need to rework some of the running rigging and need some ideas maybe or at least how to handle what I have.

1st putting the sails up and keeping the boat under control by myself. I'm finding the chore of trying to keep the boat from sailing away in even a lite breeze is tough and gusts turn into a chore, do any of you use turning blocks on the mast so the halyards come into the cockpit. Also do you do anything to keep the mainsails luff from coming off the mast? The 22' had a cotter pin to keep it on.

2nd how do you run your down haul and back hauls, also do you use a boom vang?

3rd how do you keep the jibs tack connected to the forestays hook?

4th and most important, how do you drop sails in a gust without them going into the water? Do any of you use lazy jacks on your booms?

5th where do you store the topping lift when under sail?

Just to work with what I have, I posted several pictures of my hardware for rigging. Not real sure what the "Mast Deck Hardware is for.
Attachments
Mast Hardware.jpg
Mast Deck Hardware, not sure what it was thought to use for
Mast Hardware.jpg (136.82 KiB) Viewed 14589 times
Mast cleats.jpg
Mast Cleats
Mast cleats.jpg (203.03 KiB) Viewed 14589 times
foredeck.jpg
Foredeck showing forestay sail hook and cleats
foredeck.jpg (142.32 KiB) Viewed 14589 times
jsbowman6
 
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby itguy1010 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:14 pm

I hear that going from a bigger boat to a smaller one such as the DS can be quite an adjustment. The wife and I sail our little DSII regularly and recently we had a chance to sail an Oday 37 for a windy (20 knots) afternoon on Grand Traverse Bay in upper Mi. The big boat was so easy and relaxed. What a difference.

Anyway, I'll reply with what I've done to make things easier for me.


jsbowman6 wrote:Having come from the O'Day 22 (and felt, I was a pretty good sailor) I feel this little daysailer is kicking my butt!

I think I need to rework some of the running rigging and need some ideas maybe or at least how to handle what I have.

1st putting the sails up and keeping the boat under control by myself. I'm finding the chore of trying to keep the boat from sailing away in even a lite breeze is tough and gusts turn into a chore, do any of you use turning blocks on the mast so the halyards come into the cockpit. Also do you do anything to keep the mainsails luff from coming off the mast? The 22' had a cotter pin to keep it on.

I use a jury rigged tiller tamer to hold the rudder in place and it does a decent job but yes, I have little bullet blocks on swivels at the base of the mast and on the cuddy roof that lead my halyards, foreguy (for the spinnaker pole) and topping lift straight back to the cockpit. I also use a downhaul line on my jib that also comes back to the cockpit. Where your two horn cleats and one camcleat are I have the two horn cleats, two cam cleats and I just added two clamcleats to the arrangement.

Not sure what you mean by keeping the mainsail luff from coming off the mast. Does your main have the bolt rope or are you using sail slugs? Or, are you talking about the main tack?

jsbowman6 wrote: how do you run your down haul and back hauls, also do you use a boom vang?

I'll leave this one alone since I can't really explain without pictures and I don't have any to attach at the moment.

jsbowman6 wrote: how do you keep the jibs tack connected to the forestays hook?

The second (aft) hole is where I shackle my jib tack to right behind where your forestay QR lever is attached in your photo. This is also very close to where my swivel turning block is located for the jib downhaul line.

jsbowman6 wrote: and most important, how do you drop sails in a gust without them going into the water? Do any of you use lazy jacks on your booms?

My jib downhaul seems to work so well that when I douse the jib I cleat the downhaul line tight and trim the jib sheets equally tight and have yet to have the jib blown into the water. I think the lazy jack system is really cool and saw one in use for the first time on that Oday 37. I seems like it would be a little cumbersome on a daysailer though. When I raise or lower the main I'm standing in the cockpit braced up against the cuddy bulkhead which is also where all my halyards/cleats are so it goes pretty well but I usually have my 1st mate to keep us into the wind.

jsbowman6 wrote: where do you store the topping lift when under sail?

I don't see one in your photo but it could just be out of frame but, I have a bail located towards the bottom of the mast on the forward side that is for spinnaker or whisker poles and here is where I will clip things like the topping lift and/or the foreguy. If you don't have one I would definitely add it. I think there is a class specific height that it has to be if you plan on racing so keep that in mind. On my topping lift I have carabiner on a Blake's hitch that allows easy adjustment of the topping lift/boom height when the main is down.

Hope this helps. It took me a season of sailing last year to really figure out what changes I needed to make to make it easier for me and reduce the number of trips up on the foredeck. I find that with a small sailboat like this it really requires "hands on the wheel, eyes on the sails" when the breeze gets going. But, I enjoy sailing the boat and it really is a full time sailing experience. My hours in my DS2 have made me a much better sailor than I've ever been before. I learn something every single trip out.

Hope you enjoy yours.

Eric
Eric White
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73 DSII #6428
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:39 pm

A simple bungee can be made into a tiller tamer. It won't be holding the boat into the wind forever, but it helps. Lazy jacks are overkill. If you drop the main onto a seat, that should keep it out of the wind enough for most conditions.

I cleat both halyards on the mast and never had an issue with not being able to raise or lower either sail.

For reefing the main, I would heave to. There's no wind pressure on the main if you heave to.
1014

All unused lines that do not have cleats on the mast are tied to the mast ring (bail) for the spinnaker pole.

I don't use a topping lift. After the main is down, I attach the main halyard shackle to the end of the boom, if needed. I then roll or flake the sail and tie it to the boom like this:
714
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby jeadstx » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:58 am

I installed cam cleats on my cuddy top on each side of the horn cleats for the main and jib halyards. The halyards pass through the check blocks at the base of the mast just above the hinge plate. The halyards are easily accessed from the cockpit. I have slugs on the luff of my mainsail and use a "Mast Gate" to keep the slugs in the track. I have a "Tiller Tamer" as well to hold the tiller when needed, but as Greenlake said, a bungee can be rigged up. I think slugs help the sail go up and down easier. With the "Mast Gate" when you drop the main the sail will stay in the track and not go into the water.
2161

The jib tack has a shackle attached to the aft hole on the stem head. On my jib I have a jib downhaul rigged as well. I have a small block mounted next to the stem head. I use 3/16" line for the down haul. I put a loop in one end of the down haul. I put the loop over the uppermost hank (to prevent jamming on the forestay), run it down to the small block and then aft to the cockpit through a clam cleat with a fairlead. I mounted a couple small fairleads on the deck to run the line through to prevent the line fouling any other lines. When I drop the jib with the downhaul, I pull the jib sheets tight and it keeps the jib on deck and out of the water.

I have a boom vang (original to the boat,1976). Mine attaches with a line through a loop on the base of the mast in front on one end. The other end has a piece of cable with a small ball that fits into a slotted fitting on the boom. Some people have more (modern) and elaborate vangs.

My topping lift is attached to the head of the mast with a tang mounted there. I use a piece of 3/32" cable that comes to a point about 3' from the end of the boom. The cable has loop swaged in the end. I have small block shackled to the loop. I then run a 1/8" line from the end of the boom to the block and back to a fairlead on the side of the boom, then from the fairlead to a small horn cleat mounted on the boom. When I need to support the boom I can adjust it to a desired height. With the "Mast Gate" I can lift the boom above the sail slot if needed to put up a canopy while sitting at anchor, docked, or beached. While sailing I release the line and the topping lift goes slack along the leach of the sail without causing interference until needed.

Hope that answers some things. Surprised, no questions about reefing or barber in-haulers.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby jsbowman6 » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:06 pm

Thanks all for your comments.
John, since you mentioned it.......my mainsail does have a set of reefing grommets. Do you simple loosen the main halyard use some cord around the boom through the grommets to tie the sail down on top of the boom? I tell you, I've been spoiled with that oday 22 ;)
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby jsbowman6 » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:11 pm

GreenLake wrote:I don't use a topping lift. After the main is down, I attach the main halyard shackle to the end of the boom, if needed. I then roll or flake the sail and tie it to the boom like this:
714

GreenLake, does rolling the sail onto the boom not hurt the sail? My main has a plastic window and with the battens, I had never tried that. Do you leave your main on the boat or remove it and take it in. On my previous boat, I put a canvas cover over the sail and left it. Over the years the tack got kind of crispy, not sure why.
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:28 pm

Battens are rolled parallel, so they don't bend. I leave the sail rolled and attached to the boom between trips (in the summer) and take it off the boom for the winter.
The sail is flaked on the boom mostly when docked (at a restaurant).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby TIM WEBB » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:09 pm

jsbowman6 wrote:Thanks all for your comments.
John, since you mentioned it.......my mainsail does have a set of reefing grommets. Do you simple loosen the main halyard use some cord around the boom through the grommets to tie the sail down on top of the boom? I tell you, I've been spoiled with that oday 22 ;)

We're in opposite situations, in that I've been sailing the DS for 11 years, and have recently acquired a Rebel Spindrift 22. So I'm feeling your pain in reverse ... ;-P

No worries tho, keeping the DS for daysails!

There are many different ways to rig for reefing. The simplest I've found is a hook on or near the gooseneck/tack pin, where you simply lower the main enough to put the luff reef cringle on the hook and re-tension the halyard. The aft end is taken care of with a line tied to an eyestrap on one side of the boom a few inches aft of where the leech reef cringle is when it's down at the boom, through the cringle, and back through a bullet block mounted on the opposite side of the boom, also a few inches aft of the cringle location. The line is then led forward, possibly through a couple of fairleads, to a cleat of some kind on the side of the boom near the forward end. This way you can reef the leech from a position near the mast. Once the luff cringle is on the hook and the halyard tightened, you simply pull that line until the leech cringle is tight down to the boom and cleat it off. Oh, do all this with the vang and mainsheet loose, preferably hove to as GL describes above. You can then use cords or bungees attached to the sail to tidy things up.
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby Interim » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:47 am

TIM WEBB wrote:We're in opposite situations, in that I've been sailing the DS for 11 years, and have recently acquired a Rebel Spindrift 22. So I'm feeling your pain in reverse ... ;-P


Tim-- I'm feeling this too. We bought a cruiser last year, and everything is so slow and stable I find I miss the stimulus of the wind and water. I've kept my DSII so far, partly for the closer connection to the elements but also because I prefer it when single-handing. By a lot.

I feel a little opulent with two sailboats in the Midwest, but I can't bring myself to let go of the DS.

--john
1979 DSII
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby TIM WEBB » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:05 am

John, two different boats with two different purposes. For quick trips to the smaller inland lakes around here, it'll still be the DS. I was just getting tired of all the time and effort it takes to overnight on the DS: turning it from a camper to a sailboat and back into a camper each day. So the RS22 will be for the multi-day coastal/ICW trips I enjoy, with the added bonus that my wife and daughter will now be able to come along too if they want to! ;-P
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby Interim » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:44 am

Crew was a consideration for me too. Mine doesn't seem to like adrenaline like I do. Sailing may be like baseball: A lot of different ways to enjoy it, which makes it appealing to a broader audience.

--john
1979 DSII
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby itguy1010 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:43 pm

Interim wrote:Crew was a consideration for me too. Mine doesn't seem to like adrenaline like I do. Sailing may be like baseball: A lot of different ways to enjoy it, which makes it appealing to a broader audience.

--john


Well said! Thumbs way up!!!

Eric
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby K.C. Walker » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:42 pm

Well, I do hope you guys continue to sail your DS boats regularly enough to keep interested in this forum, as I would miss you guys.

Though, I do totally get it. For cruising it's sort of like going camping in a Miata... It can be done, but...
KC Walker, DS 1 #7002
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby SUNBIRD » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:27 pm

I have embedded my answers in your message, hope they are clear?

jsbowman6 wrote:Having come from the O'Day 22 (and felt, I was a pretty good sailor) I feel this little daysailer is kicking my butt!

I think I need to rework some of the running rigging and need some ideas maybe or at least how to handle what I have.

1st putting the sails up and keeping the boat under control by myself. I'm finding the chore of trying to keep the boat from sailing away in even a lite breeze is tough and gusts turn into a chore, do any of you use turning blocks on the mast so the halyards come into the cockpit. Also do you do anything to keep the mainsails luff from coming off the mast? The 22' had a cotter pin to keep it on.

The DS I and early DS II had the halyards lead back to the cockpit ,but I* find I can tend my halyards standing in the cockpit, although I usually raise the last 6" or so of the main while standing just forward of the mast. I then raise the jib usually from that same position. I am on a mooring, so the boat is pointing close to directly into the wind, that helps. You definitely want the boat as close to pointing into the wind as you can for raising/lowering sails. I see that your boat already has the cleats for running the halyards back, maybe your mast has been replaced and the turning blocks removed? I suspect camcleat there is for boom-vang? I added a picture of a DS II showing the halyards run aft from the mast. Other than the halyard cleats and what I again assume is a cam-cleat for the boom-vang, the other cleats are unknown as to usage
O'Day_cleats.JPG
This boat has more hardware than yours!
O'Day_cleats.JPG (192.16 KiB) Viewed 14366 times
, suspect the 2 cam cleats on the aft edge of the cuddy are for the spinnaker halyard and maybe topping lift for pole?

2nd how do you run your down haul and back hauls, also do you use a boom vang?
Downhaul runs from bottom of gooseneck slide to cleat on aft side of mast below boom. Outhaul is lead from clew of sail through one of the holes in the outer boom end. I changed that to run from the forward eye in boom end through a block attached to the clew of the sail then back to a cheek block on the boom and forward to the jam cleat (looks like a stainless steel guide with a slot in it) provided by O'DAY (I eventually want to replace that with a proper horn-style cleat or clam-cleat). YES, I use a boom-vang, after adding one to our old CAL 21 I would never want to be without one! it helps to flatten the sail on windy days and holds the boom from rising off the wind reducing the risk of an uncontrolled jibe.

3rd how do you keep the jibs tack connected to the forestays hook?

I don't have a hook, my boat originally had a shackle on the jib clew that attached to the stem fitting, I changed that by removing the captive shackle and instead adding a swivel-snap shackle to the stem fitting that clips to the eye at the jib tack. I don't see what you mean by "the forestays hook". You have the same stem fitting that I have. However, I don't have that lever to tension the forestay, I wonder if it needs to be turned around to give more room to attach jib tack to the stem fitting?

4th and most important, how do you drop sails in a gust without them going into the water? Do any of you use lazy jacks on your booms?

Well, the jib isn't a big problem since mine is hanked to the forestay, but dropping the main is a bit "fun" if it is windy! I just do my best to guide it into the cockpit as I drop it, I still occaisionally lose part of it into the water, but it dries eventually. Not sure lazy jacks would really help, unless they created a pretty confining basket for the sail. Too much complication for me. I sort-of miss the way he main sail on our CAL 21 had sail slugs that would stay In the groove of the mast (we added a plate to close off the opening In the slot preventing the slugs from falling out). I do like the way that the boltrope on the DS Main just feeds into the slot instead of having to feed each slug in (or guide them past that cover over the opening). But I miss having the luff restrained while raising/lowering! OH, rubbing some candle wax up and down the sail slot aids raising/lowering.

5th where do you store the topping lift when under sail?

I don't have a topping lift, might add one someday, but I use a boom crutch to support boom while not sailing and attaché the main halyard to the end of the boom as a pseudo topping lift (somehow the boat looks better at rest that way.).

Just to work with what I have, I posted several pictures of my hardware for rigging. Not real sure what the "Mast Deck Hardware is for.
Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD"
1979 DS II, # 10201
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Re: Need ideas for the Running Rigging

Postby pboulanger » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:10 am

Thank you, Sunbird, for your replies and photo! Gave me lots of great ideas for rigging my halyards; my wife and I recently inherited my dad's trusty DS (I actually don't know if it's a DS1, 2, or 3), and I've been mulling over how to make it more comfortably sailable by myself without having to run to the bow and pray every time I want to raise and lower the jib and main. Great to see visuals of modifications to the main/jib halyards!

-Philip
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