2 questions

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2 questions

Postby jsbowman6 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:11 pm

Since I got this boat, I've had trouble getting the main to rise all the way to the top, unless I'm in absolutely no wind and even then the halyard wants to slip some. Do you guys use the cleats on the side of the mast and are your halyards double braid line? My old boats halyards were just twisted rope and all I had to do to cleat them is just spin then around the cleat into themselves. Even using proper cleating, I find these will slip some.

My second question(s) have to do with the cleats and eye strap. What are they for?

I've contemplated removing the main halyards cleat and putting a pulley in it's place and using the cleats on the cabin roof. It seems like it would give me some mechanical advanage.
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Re: 2 questions

Postby Alan » Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:43 pm

I've had trouble getting my mainsail to rise to the top just once, and I never figured out why. Same sail, same halyard, same masthead, it's worked every time since without a problem. Were I a superstitious man, I'd blame it on having offended Neptune somehow.

I'd suggest laying the mast down, sliding the mainsail to the top and seeing where it gets stuck. There are all kinds of non-Neptunian possibilities, such as a pinched mast slot at the top due to impact with something, or a bit of flotsam stuck in the mast slot. The shackle that attaches the halyard to the mainsail head cringle is worth a look also. The shackle itself won't fit into the masthead sheave, and if the halyard is attached to the shackle with a bulky knot, that will stop the mainsail from rising even sooner.
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Re: 2 questions

Postby Solarwinds » Mon Jul 04, 2016 9:32 pm

Cleats 1 & 2 are the main halyard and jib halyard cleats, respectively, on my boat
The halyards come down the mast, through cheek blocks on the port (main) and starboard (jib) side of the mast and then I cleat them off,
after hoisting, off your cleats nos. 1 & 2.
If your traveler is the crosby type like I have on my boat, sometimes the boom gets under the traveler and then the main won't hoist all the way up.
Slippage on the halyard is not something you should have if your halyards are cleated off right, you could have some stretch if you have nylon halyards,
for some reason, but never slippage. The small cleats on the mast may not let you adequately cleat the thicker diameter halyards, From the vang setup you have, I'd say the PO had things figured out and you just need to make sure you're doing it the way he had it set up.
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Re: 2 questions

Postby Alan » Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:20 pm

Hmmm. Just now spotted the cheek block on the starboard side of the boom. What's that for?
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Re: 2 questions

Postby Alan » Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:30 pm

And two more thoughts:

The boom seems to have stopped at the upper end of the sail entrance slot. Any chance the boom is stuck there? It should be able to rise up into the sail slot. Or maybe it's there because the main isn't hoisted.

I'm not spotting a downhaul line on the boom. Maybe it's hiding among the other lines in the photo? If it is, maybe that explains the padeye - it's an attachment point for the boom downhaul line.
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Re: 2 questions

Postby jsbowman6 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:05 am

Alan wrote:Hmmm. Just now spotted the cheek block on the starboard side of the boom. What's that for?

Alan, the cheek block is something I just added for a jiffy reef system. I have one on the back as well. The previous owner had added 3 cleats at the back of the boom, so I took the V grooved cleat that was suppose to be for the back haul and reversed it to use for the forward jiffy reef to cleat off.
The down haul is buried in between the cleats on the mast, I added a little cleat that is secured in the masts slot (something like my Oday 22 had). Previously I used the eye strap, but it didn't seem right, so the cleat was just laying round and I took a couple of 1/4" screws and nuts and slid it down the slot.
The vang was added by me, the previous owner used it the day we took the boat out because he couldn't find the main sheet. So after we got back and he found the correct one, he just told me to keep that one. It's a main sheet for a much bigger boat, but I figured it would work as a vang.
The booms goose neck does stick sometimes but in the pictures the main is not up, so it's just sitting where it is. That little down haul cleat lets it rest there but also lets me have the down haul preset, so I know when the main is fully hoisted.....or in most cases not.
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Re: 2 questions

Postby DigitalMechanic » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:39 am

3 & 4 might be part of the vang setup? In the picture the vang does not look to be attached in a proper location. Typically the boom vang attaches to the mast via a rope tied around the mast, where pressure is put on the front of the mast creating a "pull though" vs "pull away from" effect on the mast. The rope is held low on the mast by using a padeye on the front of the mast near where it meets the cuddy roof. One of these things... http://www.starmarinedepot.com/sea-dog-pad-eye-stainless-3%2F8%22.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjwte27BRCM6vjIidHvnKQBEiQAC4MzrU7amTVXfW48tXmGoflsoixttgz7Is-sbVZwxZub3OkaArl68P8HAQ

#4 might be where the previous owner was attaching the vang, and #3 may be where he/she was cleating it off. If that is the case, I hope there is a large metal plate underneath the cuddy roof.

Might have been trying to do something like this...

2184

At any rate if I am correct, that setup is not safe and you may end up tearing a hole in the cuddy roof. I think that the cleat location is fine because the pull on that is sideways across the cuddy roof, but the pull from the padeye straight up on the cuddy roof looks dangerous. If you look at the picture from my album above you should be able to see what I am talking about, as how to do the wrap around the mast with rope and attach the vang.
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Re: 2 questions

Postby jsbowman6 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:19 am

I have my vang connected to the boom with a bale and to the mast's tabernacle rear pin with a bale (I saw a picture and it looked like it would save me from drilling more holes). If this is wrong, point me in the right direction. I've never had or used one. I also included a picture just looking down the boom, in case you see anything wrong. The 2 cheek blocks I added for a jiffy reef (also new for me), on the opposite side are pad eyes. I just use the existing cleats to secure the reef.
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Re: 2 questions

Postby DigitalMechanic » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:55 am

So, you added the bale? I would not say that it is wrong. You cannot see in the picture I have but on that lower part of the front of the mast below the tabernacle near where it meets the cuddy roof, there is a padeye that keeps the blue line wrapped around the mast that the vang attaches to, held low. My vang cleats off of the cuddy roof, so keeping the connecting point as low as possible is necessary. With your vang setup the bales look like they will work fine. You will get a little more of a 45 degree angle by sliding it down a little more, but you are correct, you will have to drill a couple holes for the padeye.

If you do change it, put the padeye in the front of the mast and wrap line around it to tie/attach the vang to. If you add a stronger vang later, and the you have put the padeye in the back of the mast and connected the vang directly to it, I believe that is is possible that the tension from the vang can pull it out.

As for reefing, my sail is setup for it, I just have not rigged the boat for it. If there is a lot of wind, I usually douse the jib. If there is still too much wind, I am not sailing, lol. When I round up some more money to sink into another boat project, a reefing system is on my todo list.
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Re: 2 questions

Postby talbot » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:56 pm

It looks like your boat has a hybrid system. I wonder if the mast is original? Anyway, the two cleats on the sides of the mast are not supposed to be there if you have cleats on the cuddy top. Those cleats are supposed to be cheek blocks that feed the halyards back to the cuddy cleats. Older DaySailers just had those two cleats on the mast and no cuddy cleats (the reason I wonder if your mast is original).
The cam cleat on the cuddy top is for the boom downhaul. From the eyestrap arrangements, it looks like the previous owner had it set up for a line to originate at the lower eyestrap, go up to a block on the gooseneck, back down through a block at the cuddy top, and aft to the cam cleat. See photo below.
lineDiagram.jpg
lineDiagram.jpg (149.51 KiB) Viewed 15543 times

Note that I got all cleats and blocks off of the mast. That was to minimize the chances of hooking the jib sheets on the hardware when coming about. Some things that might help with the final lift on the main--
* Make sure the vang, downhaul, and sheet are slack.
* Haul as high as you can, belay around the cleat, and then pull out on the line, away from the mast. (You have tremendous mechanical advantage.) If that lifts the sail, quickly pull in and cleat the line before the sail drops back down.
* Use the lowest-stretch line you can afford. North American Sta-Set X is probably the cheapest. It uses conventional polyester fiber, but there is very little twist in the core. For more money, you can go with more exotic fibers like Dyneema or Spectra.
* If you can get the sail high enough that you have 3-4" of space in the sail track below the gooseneck, don't worry about it. You're there. Just use the downhaul to tension the luff as needed.
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Re: 2 questions

Postby SUNBIRD » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:08 pm

I have found that my mainsail slides up the groove much better after a yearly application of candle wax to the slot. I have a slab of wax like you buy to make candles (I think they come several to a box?) and I just rub that up and down along the slot a few times each Spring. I don't even need to apply to the whole mast length, just as far up as I can reach while standing on cuddy top with mast stepped. (Best is to do full length of mast and boom slots, but just the first 6' or so really helped on the mast to get the sail up and down easier. A dry spray lube will also work, but.... since I had the wax..... well ,if it works, why spend extra $$?
Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD"
1979 DS II, # 10201
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Re: 2 questions

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:40 am

jsbowman6 wrote:Since I got this boat, I've had trouble getting the main to rise all the way to the top, unless I'm in absolutely no wind and even then the halyard wants to slip some. Do you guys use the cleats on the side of the mast and are your halyards double braid line? My old boats halyards were just twisted rope and all I had to do to cleat them is just spin then around the cleat into themselves. Even using proper cleating, I find these will slip some.


I'm one of the faction that uses cleats on the mast.

I don't have issues with the jib sheet getting hung up on the bunched up halyards at all. This may be for several reasons. My cleats are situated about 6" higher than original. And I am using a single, continuous jib sheet, that is connected to the jib not with knots, but with a soft shackle loop tied as a Prusik knot.

I see no benefit from adding additional friction (blocks) to the system, or from cluttering the space between mast and cuddy lip with more cleats (I already have four cleats there, for other lines).

My boat came with three-strand halyards. I replaced them with double braid. I've replaced them again with Amsteel. I may, at some point replace them by Dinghy Control Line (very thin) from FSE Robline. The idea is to get something that is not stretchy (the three-strand was terrible, the braided line so-so, and the Amsteel or Dinghy Control Line - that I use on another boat - seem about good) and also light weight - because of the long lever arm, any added weight aloft needs to be avoided.

I raise the sail first; this lifts the boom. Then I move the boom down to tension the sail and tie it off. I had to change from a shackle at the head of the mainsail to a very compact knot as I was losing about an inch...

By tensioning the sail with the boom, you are not fighting the tension in the sail when you operate the halyard. Instead, you can use your weight (I "elbow" the boom into position, before tying it off).

Not sure whether any of this resonates with your issue.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: 2 questions

Postby jsbowman6 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:00 pm

Well good or bad, here's my fix. The only thing I would like different is the line lock to aligned better to the cockpit, but this is how the lines wanted to go and I'm not investing in line organizers. Now the halyards are easier to raise and for sure are locked when under tension. The wind here on Watts Bar Lake was light today, but I was able to test the new system. I still need to drop the mast and check the mains slot, it still seems to have too much friction. But that's another day. Thanks for the help and PM's on the fix.
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halyard control side.jpg
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Re: 2 questions

Postby talbot » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:55 pm

Certainly a simple and elegant system.
Is your double block on a swivel shackle? If not, you might be able to add one and get the lines to enter and exit without that slight twist.
Let us know how it works out.
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Re: 2 questions

Postby carl10579 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:48 am

How is the line that supports the end of the mast set up?

I was thinking of using silicone spray to lube the mast and boom slot and pulleys to ease raising sail.
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