Rigging measurements vs. manual

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Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby KingsTransom » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:52 pm

Hi all,
There is a table showing the rigging measurements found under Technicals-->Rigging Measurements, and another on page three ("Rigging Your Daysailer 1") of the manual found under Technicals-->Manuals-->Rebel/Spindrift Manual for DS2. None of the lengths are even close, even when considering that the former refers to two-piece (wire/rope) halyards. Which is right? The easiest for me would be to measure the ropes removed from my boat.
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby GreenLake » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:22 pm

KingsTransom wrote:Hi all,
There is a table showing the rigging measurements found under Technicals-->Rigging Measurements, and another on page three ("Rigging Your Daysailer 1") of the manual found under Technicals-->Manuals-->Rebel/Spindrift Manual for DS2. None of the lengths are even close, even when considering that the former refers to two-piece (wire/rope) halyards. Which is right? The easiest for me would be to measure the ropes removed from my boat.


This is a good question. If we assume that the lengths basically add for the rope/wire measurements we get:

  • Main Halyard = 50 ' vs 45'
  • Jib Halyard = 35'9" vs 33'
  • Main sheet = 44' vs 35'
  • Jib sheet = 28' vs 26'

For the halyards, I would take the shorter lengths as the minimum; possibly intended for cleating directly on the mast. If you cleat on the cuddy top, you may need to allow for that.

For the mainsheet, the length required depends on how have it rigged. You'd want the boom to just be able to reach the shrouds.

For the jib sheet, the location of your cleat will make a difference, so you need to measure your setup. I cleat mine on the CB, but the sheets are long enough to be held by someone sitting on the opposite gunwales. (As my cleats are not captive, that is, open to the top, I tend to tie the two ends of the sheet together so I can grab the sheet anywhere, tighten it, then bring it down to cleat).

Only one list shows spinnaker sheets (at 32'). For those, the recommendation normally is "twice the length of the boat". I went with 35' and that came out about right.

For more discussion on the types and diameters of various lines see this thread (Ropes for various Lines).
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby KingsTransom » Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:26 pm

While on the topic, why are the halyards half wire, half rope? The mast head pulleys look like a better fit for rope, and I don't see the advantage.
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby curifin » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:07 pm

Originally the wire offered superior performance over an all rope halyard. The advent of modern synthetics has obviated that advantage.

/vr
1970 DS1 "Denial"
1993 Beneteau First 210 "Dory"
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:49 am

I've fitted my boat with half Amsteel/half double braid. The Amsteel approaches wire in terms of low stretch, the double braid replaces the rope - mainly something to haul on that's not as slippery as Dyneema. The splice between the two was a fun project - see http://L-36.com for halyard splice instructions.
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby KingsTransom » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:50 pm

My main complaint with the half-wire, half-rope halyards is the wear and tear inflicted upon the masthead pulleys. Those pulleys have plastic wheels and get beat up by the wire. The pulleys are also difficult to replace or repair. I need to order rope soon, and am considering an all-rope halyard. I understand that the stretch can effectively increase a sail's power, and at a time when you want the opposite, but how much of a problem is this with something like Sta-Set line?
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby DigitalMechanic » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:20 am

I used a 1/4" new england rope for both my halyards, and the luff of my main (and jib) seems pretty tight. You should be able to attach a Cunningham as well for a little extra tightening strength. I believe new england ropes is what Rudy at D&R sells as the official replacement (though I sourced mine from elsewhere at the time I replaced). They have worked out fine. I believe that the additional amsteel splice GL suggests would give some advantage, 1. depending on how much you use because is has a little less stretch? (but again I personally have not found it to be an issue), and 2. because it it thinner. This will make it where your halyard hitch knot will be less clunky and may allow you to raise the mainsail an inch or so closer to the top of the mast.

In all cases, I have eliminated the wire on the original halyards. The sheeves in my masthead are all chipped up and need to be replaced as well.... Yet, another project for the future.

I am not a very experienced sailor, but I think that if you are past depowering using the mainsheet, vang, Cunningham, and/or reef... you are in stronger wind than this boat was meant for?
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby KingsTransom » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:36 am

Given that they are the original sails, I think if I try to flatten them too much, they will depower through disintegration. I'll buy the full 44' of 1/4" Sta-set for the main halyard. I can always cut it shorter if I decide to use the wire, but adding line length using a sheet bend or splicing braid is never as good as a single piece of rope.
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jul 20, 2016 11:01 am

There are other alternatives. Check out FSE Robline's Dinghy control. That is very grippy rope with low stretch. You can easily go down to 1/8". The win would come in having a lighter, thinner halyard for less weight aloft (where it has a 20' lever arm) and less windage.

In fact, it will look impossibly thin, but I have that on another boat and it works well there.
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby KingsTransom » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:28 am

Back in the days of windsurfing, we used to use an Easy Rigger for the outhaul. It was a plastic clam cleat with a slot in the middle to pass the rope. The effect was the cleat held the rope, and you held the cleat with the rope exiting the cleat through your middle and ring fingers. Very easy to pull small lines without trashing your hands. I'm wondering if that would work well for using an all-AmSteel halyard.
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby GreenLake » Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:27 am

On my boat, the halyard pulls the head of the sail to the top, while the boom is (initially) allowed to raise. That limits the peak force I have to use.

After the halyard is cleated off, I pull the boom down against its stop and tie it off. That tensions the sail. To apply that tension, I can use my body weight and I push down on a 2.5" diameter boom. Better than any easy-rigger.
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby KingsTransom » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:21 pm

GreenLake,
An 1/8" line would have about twice the stretch of a 3/16" line, for the same load. NE's HTS-75 (single braid Dyneema) seems a good combination of price and performance. The 3/16" line is $0.77/ft. Using a rigged length of 23' and 300 pounds of dynamic load, the 3/16" line would stretch 1/2", while the 1/8" line would stretch 1".
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Re: Rigging measurements vs. manual

Postby GreenLake » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:18 pm

All I know is that I cannot stretch my halyard anywhere near that much (probably because I don't pull with 300lbs). In fact, it feels like there's no give whatsoever. This in contrast to the original double-braid that I replaced.

For comparison, Sta-Set elongates at 2% per 20% breaking strength, so a 23' run of 3/16 (1400 lbs) would stretch approx. 6" at 300lbs.

I sail (too often) in moderate winds, that may mean that I don't get whatever benefit of a stronger halyard as much. However, I suspect by the time you even use the thinner one (1/8) the stretch in the halyard will be so much lower than the stretch in the sail, that the difference is not as extreme as the numbers might indicate.

But, nothing wrong with using the 3/16".
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