Cam cleats vs. horns

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Cam cleats vs. horns

Postby Shagbark » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:58 pm

I've seen several pictures of cuddy roofs where cam cleats are used for the halyards, reefing lines, etc, instead of the traditional horns. Is the ease of the cam really enough to offset what I would consider its drawback, accidental uncleating, to warrant its use? I'm asking because one of my 2017 projects is the addition of a jiffy reefing system and I'm not sure which cleat to add, cam or horn.
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Re: Cam cleats vs. horns

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:37 pm

I'm not a friend of cam cleats for halyards. I've seen one halyard come out of a cam cleat unexpectedly, with the boom suddenly coming down. Someone was under the boom, and the situation had some good chance for injury or worse. (Note that adding a fairlead between mast and cleat would not necessarily have prevented this incident).

I also question the benefit. Halyards don't get adjusted much, especially not in cruising. (I personally don't see the use of bringing jib/main halyards back from the mast. I'm taller than average and have good reach, but I've not seen any crew struggle with my setup. The experienced sailors that occasionally join me for some race aren't shy about telling me how to improve my boat. This is something they never commented on. I take that as a data point).

I like cam cleats over clam (or V) cleats; I've had lines pop out of jam cleats that weren't securely cleated without me noticing that fact. With a cam cleat, unless there's a way to accidentally pull at the tail (e.g. stepping on it/sitting against it) I feel I know when the line is cleated correctly.

I have a clam (or V) cleat on my boom for the outhaul; I picked that because it seemed less obtrusive. Cleating the outhaul requires pulling precisely parallel to the boom, and if not successful, the outhaul will pop out, but sometimes not immediately.

If you like the convenience of not having to belay the line, there are versions of horn cleats that have a V on one side that will pinch the line and hold it. Those are just as fast to "set" as cam cleats, but nothing prevents you from adding an extra turn around the horns to more permanently secure the line. My experience with these is on bigger boats, where they are mounted after a winch (thus they don't have to hold the full tension; I don't think that difference matters, because on the DS, the loads are much smaller to begin with).

Cam cleats are the cleats of choice if you need to cleat / uncleat or reposition a line frequently. I use a cam cleat for the spinnaker halyard, as that may get set and released several times in an afternoon. And when racing, it needs to go fast.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Cam cleats vs. horns

Postby jeadstx » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:32 am

I prefer cam cleats for the halyards, although I did have an accidental release occur when the boom vang snagged the halyard and released it. Even though I prefer the cam cleat, when I installed them, I didn't remove the horn cleats which provide me with the option of using either one. My reason for the use of cam cleats for the halyards is for easier release when I'm single handing, I don't move about the cockpit as easily as I did when I was younger.

On my jiffy reef, I modified the system I originally had and use horn cleats to secure those lines. I originally used a clam cleat.

I use clam cleats in only a few applications, but use them with fairleads as they seem to hold better. The aluminum clam cleats hold better than the plastic ones in my opinion. Also with clam cleats, if a line "swells" over time the clam cleat will not hold as well. With a cam cleat (or a horn cleat), it will continue to hold even if the line swells some.

With cam cleats, I find it is important to get good ones. I prefer the ones with aluminum cams. I got some cheap cam cleats a couple years back with hard rubber cams and within about 6 months they no longer would hold a line (the hot Texas sun didn't help the hard rubber either. All the cheap cam cleats I bought have been replaced with good ones.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Cam cleats vs. horns

Postby Shagbark » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:49 pm

John, why did you switch from the cam cleats to the horn for your jiffy reefing? My main reason for starting this post was specifically for installing jiffy reefing.
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Re: Cam cleats vs. horns

Postby jeadstx » Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:27 am

On my Day Sailer II, I was using a "clam" cleat on the jiffy reef, not a "cam" cleat. Reason for change to the small horn cleat was that the line I had experienced a little swelling over time and the line was not holding in the clam cleat well. Also, originally I cleated the line to the cuddy cabin top, now it is cleated to the boom on the forward end. This line pulls down the clew of the sail. On the forward end I use a reefing hook eliminating the line along the luff and coming down to the cuddy cabin roof.

Original configuration (from information I researched) for the jiffy reef line was (prior to addition of reefing hook): the line ran from an eye loop through the reef point on the leach of the sail (reefed clew point) back own to the a cheek block on the aft end of the boom to a cheek block on the forward end of the boom, then up to the reef point on the luff (reefed tack point) and back down to a deck cheek block to the cleat. I would pull the line in to bring the clew point to the boom and bring the luff tack point to the boom (while releasing the main halyard) to cleat the reef line. With the reef line cleated to the cuddy cabin roof, I had problems adjusting things to get the boom to the height it had previously been. This required a long reef line with places to cause jamming.

Configuration as modified (after adding reefing hook): the line ran from the existing eye strap up to the reef point on the luff (clew point) and back down to the existing cheek block on the aft end of the boom, then forward to the existing cheek block on the forward end of the boom, then to a horn cleat on the forward end of the boom aft of the existing cheek block. The luff reef point (reef tack point) is then attached to the reefing hook. The reef line no longer causes problems getting the boom back in position as it is no longer restrained by cleating to cuddy cabin roof. Less line required. I have two sets of reef points in my cruising sails, two setups on the boom at one time when I sail the Texas 200.

Hope the configuration setups aren't too confusing, I can do it better than explain it.

On the Day Sailer I that I'm setting up, I will be replacing the cheek blocks with fair leads (current thought) and probably eliminate the forward block location as I don't think it is needed. I used the forward cheek block on the DS II modified setup since it was already there. The DS I will also have a reefing hook.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
jeadstx
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:10 am
Location: Dripping Springs, Tx

Re: Cam cleats vs. horns

Postby Shagbark » Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:33 pm

You explained it very well. The new setup does seem less complicated (less problems) than the earlier set up. My gooseneck doesn't have a reef hook on it but maybe a call to Rudy can fix that. How do you attach a horn to the boom without having access to the inside of the boom to install nuts? It seems like the depth of the horn would make rivets infeasible.
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Re: Cam cleats vs. horns

Postby jeadstx » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:06 am

I used SS self tapping screws. I also use small nylon horn cleats. Reefing lines do not need to be very heavy. 3/16" to 1/4" at most. I went originally with 1/4", but have been using 3/16" lately. I have even been considering 1/8" Amsteel line. I usually put bungee lines through the center points to neaten up the sail, but it was explained to me a few years ago that the center boom ties aren't really necessary.

I got my reefing hook from D&R Marine.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
jeadstx
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:10 am
Location: Dripping Springs, Tx

Re: Cam cleats vs. horns

Postby GreenLake » Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:27 pm

FSE Robline makes 1/8" line that is very strong; they sell it in mm sizes, so you can pick what's closest to 1/8", I believe 3mm. The name, I believe, is "Dinghy Control". Unlike Amsteel, which is pure Dyneema, this one has a stiff cover which helps it run through blocks, and makes it less slippery (for cam or clam cleats). You can get it from a number of places; I got mine from http://fisheriessuply.com and I use it for outhaul and reefline; I even use it for halyards on another boat.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Cam cleats vs. horns

Postby talbot » Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:32 am

I use cam cleats for reefing lines, lazy jacks, topping lift, and halyards because I often sail alone, and cam-cleats allow me to raise, lower, or reef a sail from anywhere on the boat. Reefing in rough water when alone makes you want to have about eight hands. That said, I did not remove the original Marinium cleats from the cuddy top, because sooner or later, camcleats wear out. I have found Ronstan to be more fragile than Harken or Schaeffer. Although the old cleats occasionally catch the jib leads, it's nice to have them as a backup, and they are useful as temporary belays for a lunch anchor or spring line.

I do not like clam cleats for anything, but they are cheap, and I still have a couple for my Barber leads. I have burned out several plastic clam cleats over the years. If you need to use them, I recommend the metal ones.
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