Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

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Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby cotuitds2 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:13 pm

I've been sailing my DS2 for 3 seasons and really enjoying the boat. I've made few improvements that make it better to single hand and to take non-sailing guests. Biggest improvement is a big set of fiddle head blocks at boom and center board that give me great purchase and can be locked down. I've made a jib bag that allows me to keep the jib hanked on at anchor and looks great(I'll show off some pictures on a future post) , and I've added a layer of plastic grid to the sole of the doghouse which keeps items above and dry any water that gets in there.

I am now trying to solve a jib sheet routing challenge. Boat has the standard cam cleats at the centerboard trunk and blocks on tracks which is ok if I have another sailor on board who can manage the lines there but if I'm single handed its a pain to tack. Boat also has a set of cam cleats midway down the coaming but they angle *forward* so don't really work from the helm. I am eager to see if anyone has come up with an approach but here are the two that I have in mind:

1. Change the cams on the coaming around so that the path of the line leads aft and be able to tack the jib from relatively far aft. **What is the backing under the coaming in terms of adding hardware? I can't find any information about that. This approach seems ok but will still mean some line handling issues with several passengers getting in the way.

2. Run the jib sheet outside the stays to the aft block between the coaming & toe rail and then bring the line in board to a cam cleat mounted on the inside of the transom. I don't run a traveler because of my great mainsheet rig so block is unused. This is my dream configuration in that I would have full control sitting next to the tiller, lines are clear of the cockpit and I don't have to ask anything of passengers. I can't quite figure out where/what angle to place the transom cleat(does inside of transom have a name?).

Has anyone run the jib sheet aft in this fashion? Is there a downside that I am overlooking?

Many thanks for input and for the great advice that this forum has provided.

Cheers!
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Re: Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:42 am

The reversed-orientation cleats sound like they might be intended for a spinnaker? Would fit, if you have turning blocks near the stern.

Now, I singlehand my (DSI) quite a bit.

First, you should realize that sitting way back in the boat isn't what you should do, because it causes poor fore-aft balance (you are simply dragging your transom through the water).

Therefore, your focus needs to be on a tiller extension or whatever is needed so you can sit way forward of the tiller.

Second, more often than not, you will want to adjust your jib sheets when you are sitting on the "high", i.e. windward side, that is, opposite of the fairlead. So you definitely do NOT want to cleat the jibsheet aft of the fairlead - you will not be able to adjust it from across the boat.

Cleats on the CB trunk aren't as bad as they appear at first - with caveats that I will get to. In fact, that's the setup I have and it works well for me, both in light winds (where I sit in the middle of the boat, as well as in higher winds when I sit out on the gunwale).

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If you look closely you will see that the cleats are not "captive". That means that I can pull anywhere on the jibsheet and then "bring it down" to lock it. I do not have to pull from the far side of the cleat. I also tie together the two ends of the sheet, making it a continuous loop. That means, I can grab that piece anywhere and there's never a way for the free end to get away.

I don't have a good photo to show how that works. I've used interlocking overhand knots to connect the free end. Angler's knot, I think it's called.

When I sit up on the side, the CB cleats have the (small) downside that to lock the sheet you have to "pull downward". I tend to use a foot to help align the sheet in that case. Often, I don't even bother to cleat the jib, because I fitted ratchet blocks.
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I leave those permanently engaged in their "auto" position; they've never failed to release when needed, and in light winds, the ratchet rarely even engages.

Now, I've sailed on boats where the jib sheet cleats on the opposite gunwale. Works best on boats where you practically always sit on the gunwale. But you better not leave that position without releasing the jibsheet first, there's no going back once the boat heels the other way! But otherwise, that position is most convenient to manage the sheet as you sit on the side of the boat (or while hiking).

What I like abut CB cleats is that I can still reach to uncleat a jib that's on the wrong side while sitting on the "wrong" bench (but not if I've hopped up on the gunwale).

(Also, when singlehanding, I fit a simple tiller-tamer that's always engaged: a bungee across the cockpit that's "attached" to the tiller with a triple loop of shockcord. That makes the tiller able to slide along the bungee if forced by hand, but the bungee will hold it in place once I let go. I can never forget to engage or forget to release it, the tiller is available for spontaneous maneuvers, but if I take a hand off for some task the boat tends to continue; also works with a tiller extension, because I do not need to reach for the tip of the tiller to adjust the tiller-tamer - I regard that as the biggest drawback of all the commercial models with sleek clutches.)
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Re: Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby Woreign » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:01 pm

I'm new to sailing and have a question about mounting the jib sheet cams to the centerboard housing and using a tiller extension to allow solo sailing:

While sitting forward enough to reach the jib sheets and using the tiller extension to trim the rudder, what happens when you need to switch sides during a tack or jibe? Won't the tiller extension and the main sheet be in each other's way? Seems to me that you would need to let go of the extension to pass it around the other side of the main sheet?
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Re: Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby GreenLake » Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:31 pm

Really good question.

Anytime you sit forward of the mainsheet, and cross sides forward of it, you would need to release your hold on tiller or tiller extension.

From an ideal boat-balance perspective you'd sit as far forward as possible. That would make the boat go fastest (at least in low to moderate conditions). However, I don't find myself doing that when single-handing. I tend to sit close to the mainsheet location, which gives me the easiest path to switch sides.

I also tend to hold the jib sheet and main in the same hand. My boat has ratchet blocks and that makes holding these, if not effortless, than much less demanding. When you do that, you will find that moving your hand in all 3 dimensions you can adjust main and jib independently of each other, even though you are holding them in the same hand. (This works best if there's no fairlead near the jib cleat, because I won't accidentally cleat the jib).

If conditions are very steady I may cleat the main, then lean forward and cleat the jib (if the wind is strong enough that I can't temporarily lean in, I may use a foot as a temporary fairlead to get the angle to set the cleat). After that, I drape both over my knees for quick release. Sometimes I may need to play with the main, so it remains uncleated. (If it's not too gusty that is the default).

Now, unless you are racing or sailing in a very narrow channel, tacks are neither frequent nor sudden, necessarily. Therefore, you should have good time to move back behind the mainsheet, do your tack, and then move forward again for balance.

One thing I do is to tie the ends of my jib sheets together. To me the advantage is that I can never have an end of the jib sheet that's out of reach - as long as I grab any part of it, I can pull on it in the desired direction. I can also release the jib sheet from anywhere, no matter how it is cleated and which side I happen to be sitting on: pick it up anywhere, take out the slack and yank upward. (Something you can't do with cleats that have fairleads if you are sitting on the wrong side).

I'll have you know that this drives some of my crews to distraction; they are welcome to untie the two ends, but they never bother - they just complain :)

What does happen too often for my taste is that the tiller extension gets hung up in the main sheet, traveler or won't "fit" through the opening defined by the main sheet and boom because it's at an odd angle. No problem if you follow the right sequence, so practice is your friend.

Finally, did mention my bungee tiller tamer, which is always engaged when I single-hand. The downside is that its resistance confuses the rudder feedback a bit, but the upside is that even if I let go of the tiller, it doesn't swing around wildly, but remains where I left it.

If you can, take someone with you to act as a crew until you fully get the hang of your DS. You don't necessarily need a sailor, just someone who's not too timid and happy to follow your commands -- especially when to let the jib fly to avoid a capsize! It will be like solo sailing, but with an extra pair of hands. You still would be the one having to think through everything and watch the trim of both sails.
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Re: Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby Woreign » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:34 pm

Thanks for the detailed explanation!

I do use a bungee cord with the tiller, as you suggested. I like how it holds the rudder steady but still allows for movement.

So far I've only sailed with my daughter as crew. She seems to enjoy it, as you can see in the photo! Waiting for more days when the weather and winds are conducive to sailing AND my wife is off from work so we can all go out!

Hana_small.JPG
Hana_small.JPG (61.68 KiB) Viewed 1624 times

But should the time come that I am crew-less, I suppose I could sail with just the main? Or could the jib sheets be routed farther back, via an additional pair of blocks at the centerboard housing and cams below the main sheet block?
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Re: Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby GreenLake » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:46 pm

The DS doesn't sail all that well with just the main. If you are afraid of being overpowered, have your sailmaker put in a set of reef points. Something that's relatively affordable in the $120-$150 range. (Some handy people with access to special sowing machines to it themselves).

Then look up in the forum how to rig a (one) reef line and a reefing hook (e.g. from DR Marine).

You still have to control two sails, but the range of winds you can sail will be less limited --> when you are ready to do that, let's discuss that in a thread that's not related to jib sheets . ..
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Re: Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby GreenLake » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:47 pm

As long as your daughter looks this happy, you are doing something right!
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Re: Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby Woreign » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:44 am

I was wondering if the jib sheets could be run aft to a single cam cleat mounted on the centerboard housing just forward of the main sheet block? That would put the jib sheets in easy reach of the helmsman when soloing, but would not be in the way if you had a crew member to trim the jib from the default location.

Would a single open cam cleat suffice? Or would a double cam like this one work better?

double cam.jpg
double cam.jpg (98.09 KiB) Viewed 1537 times
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Re: Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby GreenLake » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:37 am

In the double cleat you show, both lines have to be lead in the same direction, that is they would face aft.

That means, crew in the normal seating position cannot operate the jib sheet.

So I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish. In my experience, single-handing the DS with the standard CB location of the jib cleats

1034

isn't a problem. In low wind, cleat location isn't critical, but in higher winds you want to sit out (or even hike) and then pulling aft would seem not much of an advantage, because from where you sit you wouldn't be able to pull aft.

What the double cleat might work for is spinnaker sheets.
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Re: Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby Woreign » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:00 pm

I understand now, thanks!

Would you recommend a specific type/size of cam cleat for mounting on the centerboard housing? Also, how deep can the mounting screws be without interfering with the centerboard? I thought I read elsewhere that it was 3/4"?

I also ordered Sailrite's reefing kit. I'll start a new new thread to document the installation and experience.
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Re: Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby GreenLake » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:19 pm

You size the cleat based on the diameter of your jib sheets. Both Harken and Ronstan make cam cleats in that range (and there may be others).

You will see in my photo that I am using an custom built stainless steel U channel (made by a local shop). That worked well for me, because the CB top surface was uneven. On some later models, the surface may actually be prepared for this and/or angled.

You can see the place where the U channel is through-bolted. The location of the bolts is such that they are placed just below the top of the CB trunk (they are visible from the inside - there's enough space there that the CB does not come in contact.

The top of the CB has some thickness, so I think if yours is set up for cleats, you could screw them directly into the fiberglass. (Through bolting from the top would be difficult, I imagine, because of the need to place and hold a nut from the inside of the trunk.)

For screws, you may want to wax them, then pour epoxy into the holes, then place them into the wet epoxy - that would end up "casting" threads for you and should be quite solid. You would drill your holes so that the screw lightly grips the sides, I'd think, there should be no need to crush the laminate by forcing the screw.

Just a guess from mine, you should have about 3/4". However, if you drill into the CB trunk, just plug the holes from the inside (plastic-wrapped sponge might be easier than tape) When you fill with epoxy, the hole will be sealed at the bottom. At least you'd know for sure how long your screws can be.
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Re: Jib Sheet Rigging--Running Line Aft

Postby GreenLake » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:22 pm

You size the cleat based on the diameter of your jib sheets. Both Harken and Ronstan make cam cleats in that range (and there may be others). Typically should fit 1/2"; many people like to use 3/8" for jib sheets because that gives better handling.

You will see in my photo that I am using an custom built stainless steel U channel (made by a local shop). That worked well for me, because the CB top surface was uneven. On some later models, the surface may actually be prepared for this and/or angled.

You can see the place where the U channel is through-bolted. The location of the bolts is such that they are placed just below the top of the CB trunk (they are visible from the inside - there's enough space there that the CB does not come in contact.

The top of the CB has some thickness, so I think if yours is set up for cleats, you could screw them directly into the fiberglass. (Through bolting from the top would be difficult, I imagine, because of the need to place and hold a nut from the inside of the trunk.)

For screws, you may want to wax them, then pour epoxy into the holes, then place them into the wet epoxy - that would end up "casting" threads for you and should be quite solid. You would drill your holes so that the screw lightly grips the sides, I'd think, there should be no need to crush the laminate by forcing the screw.

Just a guess from mine, you should have about 3/4". However, if you drill into the CB trunk, just plug the holes from the inside (plastic-wrapped sponge might be easier than tape) When you fill with epoxy, the hole will be sealed at the bottom. At least you'd know for sure how long your screws can be.
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