Blocks at base of mast

[reedd]

Trying to get my DS1 ready for a spring launch and I'm adding some new blocks to run lines back to the cockpit to make it easier to single handle (topping lift, reefing line and jib downhaul). I'd like to avoid drilling holes in the deck for padeyes so I'm wondering whether it's better to attach what amounts to turning blocks on a vang bail or whether i should insert a plate with holes to mount blocks between the tabernacle and the mast stub endcap that the bottom tabernacle plate currently bolts into. It would be a plate like this from Catalina direct:


Or if the dimensions for this don't work, I could have a machine shop bent a piece of stainless steel and drip a couple of holes for less than what CatalinaDirect charges.
The advantage of something like this over a vang bail on the mast is that the blocks couldn't get caught up on each other.

Any thoughts? Is it a bad idea to slide something between the bottom tabernacle plate and the mast stub endcap?

Thanks!
Doug

[GreenLake]

Intriguing idea.

I have a setup where an aluminum plate is mounted on the deck with an opening for the mast. I've since mounted fairleads for spinnaker halyard, spinnaker downhaul, and a jib tensioner to that plate. And the van bail is effectively mounted on the plate as well (ignoring some details that don't belong in this discussion).

I didn't need blocks; for the applications I was interested in, low friction fixed fairleads were sufficient.
Otherwise I might have used standup blocks.

Yes, that setup required drilling through the deck, but has the advantage that you can replace the plate if you need to change the number or arrangements for the blocks, so you don't need to drill new or different holes if you later need to make some adjustments. The deck area at the partners is slightly raised. That provides a thicker laminate to hold the bolts, but also prevents the plate from sitting flush. It's pretty low, so usually not an issue for hanging up sheets during a tack, which is good. However, the remaining gap was the precise width to trap a sheet, so I bent a short strip to use as a guard and close the gap in front.

The higher you mount anything like that, the more likely it's going to catch an errant sheet.

Here's a picture of the DS tabernacle from DR Marine:


Inside that tabernacle, there's no space to mount anything because the two sides are nested U profiles. And right below/above the way these connect to the mast profile involves a cast shoe (or possibly plug). Other designs may have similar issues. You don't share a picture of your tabernacle, perhaps it's one where that scheme would work, or there may be something else I don't see.

Whatever you do, you might be happier with standup blocks.
Possibly you could go a size smaller and cheaper than the ones pictured here.

[GreenLake]

I have a separate question about the lines you intend to lead aft.

I haven't installed a topping lift yet, but the design I favor is one that cuts out the run up the mast. It starts at the top, goes to a cheek block at the end of the boom and from there forward to a cleat. If you place that near the middle of the boom it's adjustable both when you sit in the cockpit and (by reaching back a bit) from standing front as you work the halyard. (If you use a V or jam-cleat, and a bit of light bungee to hold the tail flat to the boom, you can operate it without having to reach as far back as the cleat. I have that setup for my outhaul cleat and it works fine. (If you use a cheek block with open back, you don't need to thread the topping lift to attach it, you just flip it over). Also, you can stow it along the mast until you need it.

You mention the jib downhaul, which I find confusing. That one doesn't come down the mast. It would need a block at the tack of the jib and then be lead back from there. There's no requirement that it pass the mast. One boat I sailed on, had the cleat for it mounted on the side of the cuddy, with the downhaul traversing the foredeck at a slight angle, but lying flat; not raised as it would be if it went over the top.

What's your reefing setup? Is it single line for both clew and tack? Single line with hook in front? Or a dual line system? When I reef, I heave to the boat, at which point I don't need to sit at the tiller, the boat is stable and I can comfortably stand forward to operate lines or hook the sail into a reef hook. Because the pressure if off the main when you are heaving to, it doesn't matter if at the start of the maneuver the sail area of the main is a bit too large for conditions, making it a good way to keep the boat stable while reefing.

Sorry to question your premise, but I single hand quite often (although preferably in moderate conditions) and am trying to wrap my mind around the question which lines really benefit from being lead aft in a small boat like the DS. Adding blocks always adds cost and friction, but it can have other consequences. I sailed on a DS that had the halyard lead to a cleat on top of the cuddy, near the edge. A common setup. That allowed someone resting their back against the cuddy hatch to unintentionally and unexpectedly release the main halyard, with the effect that the boom came down and pinned their head against the deck. That was a scary moment, but perhaps explains why I'm skeptical of some modifications unless I understand both the risks and the benefits.

[reedd]

Thanks for the quick reply. First, yes, you're right: the jib downhaul does not need a block at the base of the mast, only at the tack. I mentioned it only as one of the lines I want to bring back to the cockpit. It will simply go back through a fairlead. So there are only two blocks I need at the base of the mast, basically as turning blocks for 1) the topping lift and 2) Reef line.

The topping lift is the kit I got from Rudy at D & R Marine. It didn't have any instructions, but it consisted of a cheek block, a line with a halyard spliced in, and a cleat. I mounted the cheek block at the top of the mast on the starboard side and attached the halyard to the end of the boom. The line simply drops down the mast and cleats to a mast cleat I already had. I'd like to run the topping lift line through a block and cleat it with a cam cleat on the edge of the cubby, so I can raise and lower the boom with the topping lift with just a couple of tugs.

The reefing system that I'm putting in is a single line reefing system detailed here: https://stingysailor.com/2023/01/14/single-line-jiffy-reefing-2/, There is already an eye strap toward the end of the boom, with a cheek block on the opposite side. I was planning on running the reef line from the eye strap, up to the aft reef point, down to the cheek block, forward along the mast to another new cheek block, up to the reef point, and down the other side to the new block, which then would turn the line back to the cockpit to a cam cleat.

I've never solo reefed, but I'm imagining the procedure as follows: Raise the boom a bit with the topping lift, uncleat the mainsail, use the reef line to pull the reef point down to the boom, adjust the outhaul, cleat the mainsail, roll up and tie the sail (if needed) slacken the topping lift. (I think those are all the steps).

I think I just need to either drill holes for two eye pads, or put on a vang bail. The boat came with a boom vang that I've never used, so I'll be getting that anyway. Might be simplest just to slap the two blocks on the vang bail, but I was thinking they might get tangled up.

The plate was an idea to keep things tidy, but the more I think about it, the more I don't think the plate will work. The tabernacle pins don't provide enough clearance for a flange plate with holes to extend underneath the pin. If I slip it underneath the tabernacle between it and the bottom cast shoe, I have to make sure that flange doesn't interfere with the hinge action. So, probably will go with the vang bail and keep it simple. If the lines or blocks get messy, I'll re-think.

Any and all guidance on this is much appreciated.

Doug

[GreenLake]

The topping lift is the kit I got from Rudy at D & R Marine. It didn't have any instructions, but it consisted of a cheek block, a line with a halyard spliced in, and a cleat. I mounted the cheek block at the top of the mast on the starboard side and attached the halyard to the end of the boom. The line simply drops down the mast and cleats to a mast cleat I already had. I'd like to run the topping lift line through a block and cleat it with a cam cleat on the edge of the cuddy, so I can raise and lower the boom with the topping lift with just a couple of tugs.

That system would certainly work. And benefit from being cleated somewhere other than at the mast. I've described the alternative solution, which is cleated along the boom just for contrast. Details of your topping lift won't make or break your sailing experience, so the choice is ultimately personal. While I would reroute the topping lift to be cleated along the boom, if you want to keep your setup, a block at the bottom of the mast would be required. Instead of either a loose or standup block, you could also just mount a cheek block on the mast itself.

[GreenLake]

The reefing system that I'm putting in is a single line reefing system detailed here: https://stingysailor.com/2023/01/14/single-line-jiffy-reefing-2/, There is already an eye strap toward the end of the boom, with a cheek block on the opposite side. I was planning on running the reef line from the eye strap, up to the aft reef point, down to the cheek block, forward along the mast to another new cheek block, up to the reef point, and down the other side to the new block, which then would turn the line back to the cockpit to a cam cleat.

I've never solo reefed, but I'm imagining the procedure as follows: Raise the boom a bit with the topping lift, uncleat the mainsail, use the reef line to pull the reef point down to the boom, adjust the outhaul, cleat the mainsail, roll up and tie the sail (if needed) slacken the topping lift. (I think those are all the steps).

What you describe is the single line system which matches what I have (except that I add another cheek block and keep the final cleat on the boom). My experience is that the system has already too much friction in it, so that I'm definitely not recommending any additions. Tightening the reef line proceeds in two steps:

1. Reaching behind the boom and pulling tight the part of the reefline coming from the end of the boom: this brings the new clew down and out.
2. Taking the slack out of the second part of the reefline by pulling in front of the boom to bring the new tack down, and then cleating right there.

Because my halyards are tied off at the mast, I'm already standing at the mast (or, precisely, in the forward end of the cockpit). I don't need a hand at the tiller, because the boat is hove to. That's a very stable position and as long as the rudder is kept hard over (e.g. by a bungee), the boat will remain hove to, slowly drifting at an angle of about 60°. The jib is backwinded and tight (see the description) and also neither flogs, nor needs attention.

That gives me all the time to do the operations you describe. Since there's no pressure on the main, it's easy to get it to slide down to the reefed position, even though the boom is at a bit of an angle to the centerline. The boat has a tendency to heel very slightly away from the side you are standing on so you can stand off center without the mast leaning into you. Makes all this stuff very natural and easy.

I completely fail to see where leading the reefline down the mast and then to some other point would bring any advantage whatsoever in my setup. Where I would make a change, if any, would be by changing the single reefline to one that operates only the clew and where the new tack uses a reef hook instead. I've used a hook on a much larger boat (39') and found it surprisingly easy to use, but I didn't know about that ahead of time and was seduced by the apparent simplicity of the single line system -- only to find out that because of friction, it actually doesn't work as advertised. Perhaps if I had a winch I might be able to use it as intended; however, manually splitting the operation into two parts is an OK workaround for me, so I'll probably keep what I have. However, if you are setting up the same system, you may find the same issue and may need the same workaround.

[GreenLake]

Thanks for the quick reply.

I hope you don't mind that I split my reply into three parts. I'm trying to point out alternatives, whether for you, or anyone reading this later. The ideal solution would be the one requiring the least added hardware, but also works well.

I think I just need to either drill holes for two eye pads, or put on a vang bail. The boat came with a boom vang that I've never used, so I'll be getting that anyway. Might be simplest just to slap the two blocks on the vang bail, but I was thinking they might get tangled up.

I strongly encourage you to invest into a good vang. 12:1 at the minimum, or 20:1 if you follow what others have done here. A vang has its place in allowing better gust response, which means you can sail longer (and in more control) without reefing. I tend to agree that cluttering up the bail would be a poor solution.

The plate was an idea to keep things tidy, but the more I think about it, the more I don't think the plate will work. The tabernacle pins don't provide enough clearance for a flange plate with holes to extend underneath the pin. If I slip it underneath the tabernacle between it and the bottom cast shoe, I have to make sure that flange doesn't interfere with the hinge action.

I agree with you about the way a plate would organize things, but that it seems not feasible to use in your setup. However, I would arrive at a different conclusion as to what to do instead. First, you may not need those blocks. For the TL, you can either re-think it where it cleats on the boom and saves any run up the mast altogether, or you can use your setup and simply add a cheek block at the base of the mast.

For the reefline, taking it down to a cheek block on the boom (near the gooseneck) and cleat it on the boom (or cleat it directly on the boom as it comes down), would avoid the need for any block near the mast base. Standing in front of the cockpit is the most natural thing to do for this maneuver, because you want to do it while safely hove to. (If you haven't done that, it's worth practicing). It's not hard, but having done it a couple of times before you urgently need it is just sensible. After you've got it down, you'll wonder how you ever got along without.

It's also useful in emergencies, when you simply need to "park" the boat for a bit to tend to something that requires all your spare hands and then some. or when you just want to take a break or have a brief bite.

In summary, if you use a cheek block for the TL and a cleat on the boom for the reefline, you might not need blocks attached to the boom bail, or a plate. Those would be the directions I would tend to explore, because they would require the least change and would keep the bail free for a real vang.

[reedd]

Thank you. This is very helpful. I'll probably leave the topping lift as is for now, since I've already drilled those holes at the top of the mast, but it's interesting to hear of other ways to skin the cat. I assume you start your TL at the top of the mast with an eye strap.

Your reefing suggestions make a lot of sense. I figured I'd be tugging at the reefing line in the middle of the boom to get the clew down and out and then pulling up the slack at the forward end. Given what you say here, I'll probably use a clam cleat on the boom -- either installed vertically so I can pull the forward reef point straight down and cleat it or horizontally with a cheek block to turn it. Either way it seems like a better way to get purchase than running down to a block at the mast base.

As for the boom vang, I will definitely look to upgrade by using some of the blocks in the existing set up and adding maybe a fiddle with a becket. But man those things are expensive. These damn blocks are bankrupting me.

Again, I appreciate the advice. thanks much!

Doug

[GreenLake]

The cheap way to upgrade a vang is by doing a cascade. For the cost of a single block, you get a factor two (2) in power.

Vangs are great for that technique because they only need to accommodate limited travel: you need to have sufficient room to let the boom go slack or swing up a bit for setting sail and reefing, but from that point to the fully tensioned spot is only a fraction of the vang's length. So a cascade or even dual cascade would work well. (I started with a different kit that came with a 6:1 setup, so I only needed a single block to get to 12:1.) If your starting point is a 3:1 you would need to have a dual cascade to get to 12:1, or if you are starting from 4:1 that would get you to 16:1.

For the TL, would have added an eye strap, but mine is still a work in progress, so I'm reusing a tang from the diamond stays that I had removed from the upper part of the mast. If you still have those: they aren't needed and arguably the boat sails better w/o them.

For the reefline, I see you got the idea. Go for it.