Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

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Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby JoeCapeCod » Tue May 17, 2022 9:26 pm

I have already posted about this in the Repair and Improvement section, but seeing all the posts here about centerboard issues, I will try again to get some advice. I recently purchases an 84 Daysailer II. I am getting the boat ready to go in the water for the first time since buying it. I got the boat up on stands to raise it off the trailer for bottom painting, and thought I would check the centerboard operation while it is on the stands. It also seems sensible to put bottom paint on the board while I paint the bottom. The board came down easily, which is probably no surprise, and I could see nearly all of it, though it is not down all the way because the tip of the board has hit the ground beneath the boat. The problem is that when I tried to raise it-- leaning into the boat for the pennant since it is on stands-- I could not budge the board. I can see tension increase in the line, which goes through a single, then another double block, and is anchored near the mast step, but I could not budge it an inch off the ground, pulling hard on the uphaul. I tried moving toward the stern with the line to get a straight pull and I tried pulling with both hands then tried again near where the line goes through a bushing to reach the first block, but again I couldn't raise it at all. It's worth noting I think that when I first raised the boat off the trailer the board came down and we were able to push it up by hand from under the boat. Raising it at that time with the uphaul was possible but difficult-- now it seems impossible to raise at all. I am concerned that something is wrong inside the centerboard trunk that is preventing the board from going up. The fact that there are many posts here all detailing different sorts of centerboard raising and lowering issues is worrisome to say the least. The last thing I want is to launch and then find I cannot raise the board. So I"m hoping someone out there can offer some wisdom on what might be wrong, what I can check, or, even better, what can be done to fix this kind of problem. I believe my boat's centerboard is rigged the way many of the later boats are...a purchase system with a single and a double block along the floor of the cuddy and a wire pennant running from that system into the front of the centerboard. Thanks in advance for any suggestions about how to deal with this-- I won't be able to launch until this is resolved.
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Re: Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby GreenLake » Tue May 17, 2022 10:13 pm

Joe, I'm not a DSII owner, so some of my understanding is a bit second hand, although I've sailed on a DSII and we had to troubleshoot the centerboard on the trip.

1804

That photo shows our helpers careening the boat while we clear out the mud that prevented the CB from going down.

When the boat is in the water, you get an assist from the buoyancy of the CB. it's not much, but it makes raising it on the hard a bit more challenging.

You may have the downhaul wedged between the board and the trunk. (That happens if you don't maintain tension on it as the board drops - you'll find quite a few posts about this here).

If you haven't tried, you might want to see if you can get the slack out.

If you haven't tried, you might want to see whether you can move the board from underneath the boat. (Be very sure it can't drop on you when you do that.

Obviously, you'll have to find a way to at least temporarily get the CB out from under the boat. Either into the trunk, or failing that, if you have the brackets you can unscrew from below to get the CB to drop, you need to drop it all the way.

Later, you can put your boat on its side. That's the most convenient for working on the CB because the boat can't fall, and you can access both sides of the hull with equal ease.

"Bottom paint": are you leaving your boat in the water? As on a dock or mooring? Otherwise, if you dry-sail the boat don't bother.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby JoeCapeCod » Wed May 18, 2022 8:21 am

Thanks for the reply. First, just to get this out of the way...yes, the boat will be on a mooring in Buzzards Bay, Cape Cod, so bottom paint is a necessity...
Next, more importantly, on the center board. I am quite sure my centerboard rig is standard for an 84 II. (I've looked but so far don't know how to post photos but will do if you tell me how and would take a look.)

Once I get you the pics, I'd like a very basic lesson on using the uphaul and downhaul. I sailed and raced a number of one-design boats not dissimilar from the DS, at least in length, which includes a Lightning and Flying Scot, but recall a single line centerboard rig not the two on the DS.

At this point it wouldn't hurt to have you or someone else absolutely confirm which line is up and which down and answer 1) why is there only one horn cleat for both lines? and 2) though they don't look continuous, are the up and downhaul somehow connected?

As for the current situation, I can push the board back into the boat about 2/3rds of the way by hand from under the boat, then it seems to bind, but I still cannot raise it an inch with the uphaul...or what I assume is the uphaul!

Thanks again.
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Re: Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby GreenLake » Thu May 19, 2022 12:30 am

If you hunt a around a bit you should find an thread advertising Robert's "book" on the DSII. I think you'll find that one a must-have.

If you hunt around this section ("DaySailer II only") you'll find topics that contain diagrams of the setup. Please take the time to scroll around, or use search or use Google to find them, if you haven't already.

The downhaul exits up, as it pulls the front of the CB up. The uphaul exits in the front. That line goes over the top of the CB and pulls the back side forward (both motions are rotations, of course, centered on the CB pivot).

If you can't tighten the line that exist in front, then it may be jammed somewhere.

If the CB binds when lifted manually, one of the lines has slack that gets between CB and trunk.

If all else fails your CB pivot ought to be held by two brackets screwed into the hull from below. You should be able to undo those and drop the board completely w/o having to enter the boat.
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Re: Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby JoeCapeCod » Tue May 24, 2022 7:57 pm

Thanks again. I'm up to speed on the rig for the centerboard. I still am perplexed about how much strength it takes to raise the board when the boat is on jack stands about 3 and a half feet off the ground. In fact, I have added purchase to the 3:1 standard set up (actually the block on the end of the centerboard uphaul wire increases that purchase another 2:1 by changing the double block to a triple and the single block to a double. Surprisngly, even that added purchase hasn't made pulling up the board much easier. Using two hands I can get it about half way up but then no amount of pulling on the uphaul seems to budge it. I hear you about a loose uphaul or downhaul causing the board to stick, but I can push it up with from beneath the boat without it seeming to bind or get stuck, though that, too, takes some effort. The board is heavier than I would have imagined, though I don't know what it actually weighs. Thanks for the heads up on the two plates with two screws I see on the hull on either side of the centerboard opening as holding the bracket that holds the board, I am not sure what I would gain by dropping it at this point...and I'm afraid I would be taking on serious issue of getting back in position, so I'll let that option go right now. In the absence of other suggestions or ideas or, I'll go ahead and launch as is...and see if the board's buoyancy is what is so sorely missing in my testing it on land. Of course, I would welcome more input from you or others that might shed a bit of light on the situation I have encountered. Thanks again for adding some very useful knowledge to my growing familiarity with the DS.
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Re: Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby ArchSail » Tue May 24, 2022 10:26 pm

Hi Joe,

If your uphaul system uses a stainless cable, check the holes going from the cuddy to centerboard. The centerboard trunk has two layers. The cable travels through a hole in the “outer shell” (cuddy side) and passes through the bilge area for about a 1/2 inch. It then enters a second hole into the “trunk cavity” - this is where the centerboard resides. In my case, the cable sawed a nice path above the 2nd hole and would wedge itself in there. This made raising the board more difficult due to friction. I imagine it might impact lowering the board too.

I think I have a pic of it in this section, down a few threads, “DS Control Lines” or a similar title.
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Re: Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby GreenLake » Wed May 25, 2022 3:29 am

@ArchSail: Good point about the cable possibly sticking.

Joe, Another issue, if the CB is waterlogged, it will exacerbate the difference between land and water operation. Significantly so, I'd expect.

Glad you've found the brackets. They will come into play if you really can't raise your CB all the way up. Because the only way you're going to get your boat off those stands is with the board up -- or removed.

Putting a board back in with the boat on it's side may be easier than you fear (it's dead simple on my DS1, but yes, I have a different system). But with the boat off the stands (whether level or upright) you might be better able to get at the front of the CB trunk to work on that exit hole. And with the board pulled, there's nothing hiding from view in the CB trunk.

Some people run the cable through a bit of a metal nipple (older posts identify the plumbing part they found worked best for them), while others simply filled all gaps with thickened epoxy -- unless you thicken it with chopped glass strands or metal filings I'm afraid it won't help much with any sawing action (other than the added thickness over either wall of the CB trunk). But both repairs will fix any leaks between CB and liner -- that water will go into your bilge, where it has no business of being. (And there will be a lot of it, as the CB trunk is overpressured when you go at a good clip).
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Re: Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby JoeCapeCod » Wed May 25, 2022 6:23 am

Once again, many thanks for the info from both of you. It seems very possible to me that the wire cable is binding but I am confused about the "second hole." I can clearly see the hole in what I would call an "extension" of the centerboard trunk, a kind of mini-trunk case that extends from the large centerboard trunk on the cockpit forward into the cuddy area. I can easily see the passage of the wire cable through this hole to where it is attached to a block through which the uphaul rope line passes. The uphaul rope line passes through the blocks that give it purchase and then through this single block attached to the cable then is anchored in an eye strap on the cuddy floor. So far I am not seeing the cable binding where it clearly exits the centerboard trunk. But I don't understand how to see or get access to the "second hole" that I think you are saying is somehow internal. (I assume you don't mean the hole the uphaul rope line passes through into the cockpit. Again nothing is binding there.) I would happily post photos of my setup but I have not been able to figure out how to post photos in the thread. I'm usually quite literate with online programs-- I'm a semi-pro photographer and do all sorts of photo processing and posting-- but have not been able to crack the code on how to get a photograph to you via the DS forum. Maybe one of you could fill me in on how to do that so I can share photos with you. The problem with the cable you describe in the "second hole" seems very plausible to me but so far I don't get how to check that out. But thanks so much for responding!!
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Re: Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby ArchSail » Wed May 25, 2022 9:30 am

I could definitely see a waterlogged board contributing to the problem. If you look at the image gallery, some of these centerboards can be really beat-up. My uphaul takes a bit of force when out of the water so any extra weight would exacerbate the situation.

Joe - below is a picture of my uphaul line going through the cuddy side trunk extension. I took this from inside the cuddy, facing aft back toward the CB trunk. You'll see the second hole inside the first. That second hole leads into the centerboard trunk cavity (my name for it) - notice how the cable has sawed its way up about 1/4-1/2 inch beyond the original hole.
Image

I ended up replacing the stainless cable with dyneema, put a bushing inside the second hole to patch the sawed area, and inserted a pvc plumbing nipple to join the two holes. If I can get to my boat soon, I'll take some pics.
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Re: Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby GreenLake » Wed May 25, 2022 2:03 pm

posting photos: there's a whole topic on that in the "how to use the forum" section.

Joe, the key insight is that the CB on the DSII is "double wrapped". Unless it isn't in your model year, in which case you should see a seam around the trunk where it pierces your cockpit floor. But as I understand it, the usual setup is that the floor molding has something that wraps the trunk, like nesting Russian dolls. Hence "two holes" (one for each layer) and the need to seal in between them.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby JoeCapeCod » Wed May 25, 2022 3:54 pm

Wow. Fascinating. Can't thank you enough for the photo and explanation. Here's a bit of strangeness for you: So after beefing up the purchase on the centerboard uphaul, I couldn't get over the fact it was harder, not easier, to raise the board with 5:1 (at least that's what I think I ended up with) so I went back to first rig with a single block and then a double block near the mast, and lo and behold it was easier to pull up! Go figure. Then...just for the h of it, I reduced the block to just a single near the mast and kept the wire cable as it had been, attached to a single block that slid along the dead-ended end of the the uphaul line, and now, for reasons that completely escape me, pulling up the board is the easiest yet. Still takes a good tug, but manageable. I am no engineer (obviously) but I am completely bewildered by way REDUCING the purchase has made pulling the board up possible and within reason. The only thing I can think of is that the greater purchase somehow pinned the board against the side of its slot and the harder I pulled the more resistance there was. There was more friction of course but that in no way accounts for the way the board seemed cemented in place and led to all my concerns. Of course, I am a very happy camper, even if I am befuddled one. Many thanks for the help, which has certainly increased my understanding of what is what. I will keep my eye on the pass-through hole and the one behind it, thanks to the photo you sent, in case my newly found "easy" board uphaul starts fighting back.
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Re: Centerboard Very Hard to Raise

Postby GreenLake » Wed May 25, 2022 5:39 pm

I think that a change in angle will be the explanation. Look at what @ArchSail shared: if you have anything like that going on, a pull at the wrong angle could effectively "cleat" your cable.
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