Sleeping Aboard

[talbot]

I would be interested in seeing both. Thanks.

[Breakin Wind]

I would be interested in seeing both. Thanks.

Sounds good... The fore deck hatch is the shortest story...
I got it on ebay last winter from one of the online stores, it was literally the biggest one I find find (that I could afford) that looked like it would work.
If this link doesn't work, I can upload more specific pictures of the hatch itself.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/INNOVATIVE-9X14 ... 2c6f6bdeba

It's called the "INNOVATIVE 9X14 POLAR WHITE BOAT DECK PLATE hatch". Basically a rubber sealed round cornered rectangle that snaps in and out (no hinges) basically flush with the deck. The catches are on the short edges of hatch and it seals well. After cutting the appropriate hole, you install with sealant and screws.



(Please ignore the repair seam line from the PO. One of my goals this spring was to repaint the foredeck, but spring never happened, it just went from winter to more snow and then finally summer - Next year for sure)

It's pretty straightforward to install. It fits between the stiffeners which I located by putting a 500 watt light inside the cuddy and sitting on the cuddy deck in the dark. Easy to see the shadows. The deck curve is pretty close, I say pretty close, because the first time I mounted it, I didn't seal it (thankfully) and just screwed it in place. Unfortunately the deck curve is a little more that then hatch wanted, so with the screws cranked down the hatch had difficulty seating. I backed off on the screws to see how much gap I would have to allow on the edges (about 3/32" on each outside edge) so I made a spacer out of scrapes, took off the hatch, applied sealant and then screwed it down to fit my spacers (just on the very outside edge). Confirming the hatch worked and sealed properly, I let the sealant dry, the pulled out my spacers and filled the small gaps left by the spacers.

The hatch is easily removed on the outside by grabbing the recessed edges and my 4 (almost 5) year old grandson can open it from inside by pressing the catch tabs. I hadn't planned to need any retaining cable or otherwise but as I said, my grandson now knows how to open it from the inside and will likely (at some point) decide to do that while under sail some day. Just as soon not have to deal with that in real time, although the hatch itself does float. The locking tabs on the ends kind of messed up the idea I had of being able to put a screen on it, but I could certainly see fabricating a screen that could pop in from the outside to replace the hatch cover.

Info on the Cuddy door/hatch to follow

Thanks - Scott

[Breakin Wind]

I would be interested in seeing both. Thanks.

The Cuddy door & companionway hatch was a project that I started the first winter 2011-12 after I'd acquired my boat in late summer. It had not been in the water yet, which was good because it needed a fair amount of repair and restoration, all of which I learned from this board. Very early on, I noticed and zero'd in on jdoorly's (Mr. Innovation) companionway hatch and cuddy door setup.



Having spent about a painful 4 weeks crawling in and out of the cuddy to find and fix various issues, it didn't take much for me to convince myself the cuddy itself was too small to get in and out of, and I was also realizing (as mentioned early on in this thread) how limber I would need to be to get in/out without bruises, abrasions, and other pain & suffering.

If you have nothing to do late some night, you can read most of those highlights here:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3956

And the current iteration sort of evolved from there...

As I'd mentioned in my previous posting, the intent for this past spring was to finish my upper deck repairs & restorations and to paint, but summer came late, and I was tugging at the leash to get in the water, so I did the latter. I somehow had fooled myself into imagining I'd spend several afternoons at the dock working on my deck/body work and then another couple afternoons painting sections under a blue clear sky... The blue clear skys came, but the bodywork never got carried forward. So it's pretty much how it left the pole-barn in May... still needs work and paint.

Not withstanding, here's how it is now...



Keeping, sun and bird droppings off, I made a quick sunbrella (or equiv) hatch cover that snaps on/off, also hiding the ongoing need for the finishing work.
The cuddy doors are mounted to a track inside the companion-way hatch and "sort of" open like a garage door. The bottom section of the hatch folds under so it all fits within the hatch. I have two fabric straps actually attached to the inside of the hatch face, that come under and around the edge to snap to the top hatch facing, keeping the door in place. The inside cuddy door edge trim pieces were kind of a challenge trying to cut them to conform to the fiberglass edge shape, while providing a straight edge for the hatch to close against. The outside pieces were much easier, just cut and attached to make a finished edge. This hatch does not yet lock in place, but I know how I'm going to do it, and when that happens it will become significantly more water resistant than it is now, but that's phase 3. Until then, I'm going to try not to capsize. I might try not to capsize afterwards too...



Of course the reason for doing this project was cuddy access, so therefore the hatch has to open which it does with two quick disconnect hinges at the forward edge. GL, jdoorly and others were very patient giving guidance and suggestions for construction, some of which I took, others I sort of went the direction I was pointed.
One suggestion they did make that was very good, was the concept of a shoebox lid, where the hatch fits over an inside "L" frame on 3 sides, and the cuddy door comes down to create the 4th side. I build the inside frame by cutting and routering a 2x6 for the front cross member and then 2x4's into "L"s for the side members. Lots of fitting and trimming to precisely match the cuddy roof curve, but it came together in the end and is super strong. I cut away a lot of wood so it isn't as heavy as it sounds. I sealed and screwed the 3 inside frame pieces together and then also the fiberglass deck to the L frame. I could jump up and down on the hatch or open edges and it won't flex at all.

Not that it's part of it, but the inside step/seat is just there to cover the battery boxes and provide a solid place to sit/stand on for rigging etc. when the hatch is out. It is held in by a couple snap latches and lifts out, again for battery access or other needs.


As mentioned, the companionway cover definitely still needs some additional finishing work and painting. That will come.
I had planned to make a low matching frame on the foredeck on which to place/attach the lid if I go sailing with it removed, but again Jay, GL and others warned about things for Jib sheets to catch on, so I've been sailing and observing this summer to see how it looks like it would work. I think it will be OK, but I also think I'll try it once or twice with the hatch tied down via the foredeck cleat and head stays before I drill any more holes next winter.

That's about it for that hatch.

Thanks - Scott

[talbot]

Wow. Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll file this for a future winter.
Question: How waterproof do you think your hatch is? I built a hatch which is mainly designed to keep water out in a capsize, not to let anyone in.
More access would be nice, but it has to be balanced against my paranoia.

[GreenLake]

I thought the DSII was designed so that it could float on its side w/o taking water into the cuddy (assuming that it's not loaded w/ gear). I got this from a post here a few years back and it was mentioned as distinguishing the DSII from the DS1, which will immediately take on water into the cuddy (but where that water, by the same token, is also not trapped, as it levels with the water in the cockpit immediately).

[jeadstx]

From my own experience, I can say that the DS2 does stay on it's side (provided the mast head stays afloat). The cuddy will not readily take on water as long as there are no openings in the hull/deck joint. My boat has a few leaks along the hull/deck joint and so it does bring on water. Even with some water coming in the boat stays on it's side. A DS1 would probably swamp fairly quickly. My hatch covers were designed to keep my gear from floating out of the cuddy cabin in case of a capsize.

A Potter 15 on the Texas 200 in 2009, after capsizing reported that the contents of the cabin came out. everything floated off in different directions. He recovered about half of what had been in the cabin. After reading the accounts, I made hatch covers to keep things inside in case of a capsize.

John

[Breakin Wind]

Wow. Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll file this for a future winter.
Question: How waterproof do you think your hatch is? I built a hatch which is mainly designed to keep water out in a capsize, not to let anyone in.
More access would be nice, but it has to be balanced against my paranoia.

The foredeck hatch is very water tight. The cuddy/companionway hatch/door is not so much (right now). It keeps rain out, but if submerged would not stop a flood.

Defining terms here, the Hatch is the companionway tilt-up fiberglass piece, the door is the wood drop down piece. I built the hatch with the intention of adding edge rubber surfaces to the boat L frames, that the hatch will close against and then probably four either spring latches (one in each corner) or some kind of bulkhead type dog down screw latches, but I've not gotten there yet I can see how it would work though. The door (wood) also was intended to close against a rubber covered edge, this time on the inside lip, but again I've not gotten there yet. To make that work I'd have to use something like a slide bolt on the outside edges to press in against the seal, and I'm not excited about that look so I'm playing with a different idea.

I did take notice and comfort from several of the capsize threads where jeadstx and others commented the DS2 floats on it's side with the cuddy door out of the water. Working the angles I think my top hatch would also not be under water too, but that will not be known until test time when it either works or doesn't. I doubt this kind of setup could be made to be water tight without tremendous over engineering, but it wouldn't take much to make it sufficiently water resistant to make it recoverable should things go wrong.

Thanks, Scott

[jeadstx]

I wasn't concerned with my cuddy cabin hatch cover being watertight, just keeping things from floating off. Anything important that I don't want to get wet (or could be damaged by water) is in thier own waterproof bags or containers. My boat took on enough water that it settled to the centerline of the boat, stayed on it's side until righted. Once it got to about the centerline point it stopped settling. When righted, it was swamped, but afloat. Only things lost were those in the cockpit, most of which floated. My rechargable battery (hooked up to the solar panel) which was strapped in place was lost when the straps broke. If things strapped down, didn't have straps break, they stayed with the boat.

I don't think a hatch on the cuddy cabin couldbe made watertight without making it difficult to work with while sailing.

John

[GreenLake]

I tend to concur with John that it's a fool's errand to try to create a watertight enclosure for the cuddy. Worst that can happen if you try is that it lets water in during the time you get organized to right the boat, but prevents it from draining again as you are trying to turn the boat.

John described his experiences when capsizing during the Texas 200, i.e. essentially an extended cruise, with hundreds of pounds of extra gear and provisions. When the boat is set up for a daysail, what you are talking about is perhaps a few dozen pounds of gear in the cuddy (triple that if you are sailing with motor).

[Alan]

The DSII cuddy is designed to drain. There are two drain holes, about 1-1/4 inch in diameter, at the base of the cuddy bulkhead, just in front of the bilge inspection ports. The cuddy floor is about an inch higher than the cockpit floor, so any water in the cuddy will drain out through both holes when the boat is horizontal or thereabouts, or through whichever hole is lower when the boat rotates around its longitudinal axis.

[jeadstx]

I have thought about putting rubber flaps on the drain cuddy cabin drain holes to allow water out (water that gets in from the hole in front of the CB trunk) and to prevent water from the cockpit getting back in. The flaps, at least in my part of the country, also would help prevent wasps building nests in the cuddy cabin when the hatch covers are on while the boat is being stored.

John

[klb67]

My prior owner added these scuppers to each of the holes in the bulkhead.

scupper.jpg (28.49 KiB) Viewed 11805 times

I have not had occasion to have water in the cuddy or the cockpit in a capsize to see how they work. But I did hose out the cuddy with the rest of the boat during my initial clean out . The scuppers worked pretty well to let most of the water out, including some of leaf debris in the cuddy. I had to clean out the bigger debris to get the scupper to work again. I can't speak to whether the scuppers keep water from draining back into the cuddy from the cockpit. I think they would.

[jeadstx]

You don't need to capsize to get a substatial amount of water in the boat. I've put the rail under before in high winds during a race, I'm sure many others have also. Ended up with a cockpit full of water.

John

[GreenLake]

My prior owner added these scuppers to each of the holes in the bulkhead....I can't speak to whether the scuppers keep water from draining back into the cuddy from the cockpit. I think they would.

So, the cuddy is to be imagined on the left in the picture?

[GreenLake]

The DSII cuddy is designed to drain. There are two drain holes, about 1-1/4 inch in diameter, at the base of the cuddy bulkhead, just in front of the bilge inspection ports. The cuddy floor is about an inch higher than the cockpit floor, so any water in the cuddy will drain out through both holes when the boat is horizontal or thereabouts, or through whichever hole is lower when the boat rotates around its longitudinal axis.

Yes, eventually things will drain. However, if you assume the worst case where your (heavily loaded) DS is floating near the centerline and you had a watertight cuddy door. While you were getting organized (several minutes or more) the water level would inevitably equalize. Now you are trying to rotate the boat with half the cuddy volume full of water. It would take the same amount of time for that water to drain. On a DS1, with full-width opening, any water can flow out as fast as it got in, thereby not adding resistance to righting the boat.

I maintain my view that it's illusory to believe you can prevent water from getting into the cuddy (unless the DSII is so lightly loaded it floats w/ the cuddy opening above water). So, in any scenario where water can get in, you really want a way for it to drain quickly (immediately) as you try to right the boat, not slowly through a single drain hole.

Most of the doors and boards people are using are probably loosely fitting, so that they allow water to get out at a rate that initially exceeds the flow through the drain hole. If not, I would seriously think about a "cat-dor", something like large hole with flap, in each lower corner. The flap not so much to act as a valve, but to keep rain, dust, insects etc. out.