Alternative Setup to Jib Cars?

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Alternative Setup to Jib Cars?

Postby danamags » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:26 am

So in what might be described as the maiden voyage (as a new owner of an old boat), both of the jib cars and tracks were torn out of the gunwales under the stress of having the jib sheeted while sailing close haul - not at the same time, but one came out, which I then simply used a horn cleat near the stern to keep the jib under control when needed on that side, using the remaining jib car/track to handle it when on the other side - until, of course, that one ripped out of the fiberglass, as well.

So now I've got two gunwales with 10 holes to patch and I'm reluctant to simply replace the tracks and set it up the same way again. It was challenging to uncleat the line from further astern (as has been discussed on the forum previously, it seems as if the design and angle needed to cleat/uncleat is more suited assuming a second crew member sitting further ahead) - and so I'm wondering if anyone has an alternative setup for managing the jib. I have read about people installing a fairlead then cam cleats on the centerboard trunk, but that seems uncomfortable to have lines running to the center of the cabin if you've got company on board.

Is there an alternative rig to simply manage the jib? Would having a fairlead and cam cleat on the top of the cuddy cabin make sense? What would the drawback be on such a design? How about on the deck just in from the base of the shrouds - or a block mounted there leading to cam cleats on the face of the cuddy? (this would actually be my preferred design, but not sure if there is a reason not to set it up this way?) Is there enough structural strength on the face of the cuddy to handle the strain under cleat? Would there be a way to otherwise cleat from a fairlead that keeps it out of the way and convenient?

Thoughts and guidance would be greatly appreciated - and pictures if you can post them make it easy for a novice such as myself to understand.

Thanks again to all,

DM
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Postby Peterw11 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:06 am

If you read my reply to your initial post, you'll see that I experienced a similar situation and merely moved the jib cars rearward an inch and redrilled the attachment holes.

Keep in mind, I have a DS1, and the tracks only had two attachment screws on each. I attributed my problem to 40 years of stress opening up the holes enough to allow the screws to work themselves loose. I reinstalled my tracks in the new location two seasons ago, and they're still holding strong.

As I understand it, your tracks had five screws on each side, and they all failed on your first trip. That could be attibuted to the same stressed my rigging experienced, or it's also possible that the wooden reinforcement strip behind the fiberglass is rotten and needs total replacement.

How that could happen escapes me, unless your boat sat full of water for a couple of years, or was stored upside down in a damp environment.

If that's the case, there is a thread which explains the procedure and how one owner went about the task.

I'd give my approach a shot. If you've still got sturdy wood behind the 'glass, the track will cover the old holes, (except the first one) and you should be good to go. If the strip is rotted, then that'll confirm it and it'll all have to be replaced.

There are other alternatives, and I'm sure some DS2 owners will chime in with their suggestions.
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noted

Postby danamags » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:11 am

peterw11, i did notice your reply on my other post - and laughed because we'll surely be quoting you around here for a while - our cruise yesterday was "an adventure" as you called it. I've thought about moving the track up further, but it still doesn't address the angle of the cleat, so I'm reluctant to go that route. i've been grounded for sailing/boat work for the remainder of the weekend from the boss, so i've got some time to ponder whilst making it all up to my wife by cleaning, shopping, generally otherwise doing some PR to get back in good graces following our...adventure.
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Postby Peterw11 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:41 pm

@Danamags:

There are alternatives to the stock jib sheet set up, but redesigning the normal rigging would depend on how the boat is to be used.

If reality sets in with the rest of the family and you end up primarily a single handed sailor (just kidding, sorta) then the standard set up works the best, at least for me. Even though the sheets cut across the cockpit to centrally mounted cleats (either on the centerboard trunk, or the thwarts), you'll want them within easy reach of your seat, and that's where they would be with the stock location.

My DS1 came from the factory with thwart mounted cam cleats mounted at 90 degrees to the centerline (pointed directly at the gunwales) , which were OK, but I found by removing two of the locating screws, rotating the cleats 45 degrees toward the bow, and then drilling and reinstalling the screws, the reach and cleating action was a lot easier when singlehanding.

To me, the ideal location would be on top of the centerboard trunk, and I intend to add an additional pair of cleats there. I have some Ronstan nylon cleats in my inventory, I just haven't gotten around to installing them.

There are other possible locations which other DS owners prefer, and I'm sure you'll find that info posted here in short order.
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Postby GreenLake » Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:30 pm

If you have (or suspect) extensive rot, my first suggestion would be inspection ports...

If you think the problem is just with the screw holes, see my other post.

I think the location of the tracks is probably fine and not in need of changing, but without a picture of your setup I'm not sure I'm not making assumptions that aren't true for your boat - did you post one?

Top of CB cleating works for me. If you sail with crew, they are where the crew sits, and if you sail by yourself, you really should move forward for balance anyway, so you should have them in reach.

Mine are at 90° to the centerline, but each is on a wedge so that they line up with the slight rise caused by the tracks being about 1-2" higher than the CB trunk bracket. I added the wedge to cure a persistent problem with "accidental" uncleating.

I've had an issue with cleating the jib sheets from a hiking position, and the wedges don't help that. However, pushing downward on the sheet with a foot is a perfectly good workaround, so I'm satisfied with my setup.
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Postby talbot » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:49 am

Swivels make a big difference for single handing. Allow you to control either sheet from anywhere in the cockpit. My first boat had canted swivels; my second (but older manufacture) boat had the 90-degree cams. I replaced the fixed cams with swivels and no cants. I was planning to cant the swivels later, but it turned out they work fine as is. You might be able to buy the swivels and attach the existing cams, depending on manufacture. New swivel cams (I've used Harken and Ronstan) are expensive, but they don't seem to wear out, and they make the line handling much easier.
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Postby navahoIII » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:32 pm

Another setup that keeps the jib sheets out of the center cockpit yet easily accessible is having the sheets go through a swivel block on the side decks then through a bronze(?) eye, that acts as a fairlead, right in the mahogany coaming , and finally to cam cleats mounted on the inside coaming. That's how ours was originally done -- and still is. She's a 1961, DSI

For single-handing it may require modification, but with crew it works well.
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Postby GreenLake » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:51 pm

By 1963 O'Day changed their ideas - mine is an interesting boat in that the deck was originally drilled for the fitting you describe, but then someone patched the holes at the factory (the coamings were never drilled).

The problem with that original setup is that the sheeting position is too far outboard for upwind, and not adjustable. With inhauls, that would not be an issue.

Inhauls will allow sideways adjustments of the sheeting position whereas tracks allow fore-and-aft adjustments. There's definitely an opinion out there that says that the fore-and-aft adjustments aren't as necessary when you have the inhauls.

They should be separate, in principle, and people who are experienced in other boats, but not the DS, have always insisted on adjusting both when sailing with me. So, I'm interested to hear more about the reasoning (or experience) that lead people to the opinion I mentioned.
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Postby talbot » Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:23 pm

Sounds like something for the racers to weigh in on.
I religiously follow my instructions from when I was a kid, moving the jib cars forward to create a fuller jib in light air, bringing them back to flatten the jib in strong winds. But the fact is I really can't tell the difference. Call me an agnostic on the matter.

I might be more sensitive if I were racing. It also might be that the short jib tracks on the DS simply aren't long enough.

The barber leads, on the other hand, make a dramatic difference in the angle of the jib in relation to the main. An inch of deflection goes a long way. I imagine that even a race crew, trying to squeeze around a mark without an extra tack, might not waste time scrambling down to the lee rail to loosen and retighten the jib cars when a tweak of the barber hauler would change everything in a second without leaving hiking position.
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Postby GreenLake » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:59 pm

And just to complete this, my sailmaker sent trim instructions and they are based on inhauls and a fixed fore-and-aft sheeting position.

The inhauls do make a difference. When I had my old sails, the difference was between being able to set the jib without flutter in certain conditions or not.

The newer jib has the "annoying" property that it will set (apparently) fine when badly trimmed. I found I had to relearn a lot, and things I did to get whatever performance out of the old, worn-out sail no longer work or are counterproductive.

The inhauls no longer affect the sail shape as dramatically, but in the right conditions they do give better pointing. Not when winds are too light or too strong.
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Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:46 pm

When the Red Witch first got me, I played around with moving the cars fore and aft, and found that I got the best jib shape/boat speed with the cars all the way aft in almost all conditions, probably due to my measly 165 lbs singlehanding! :twisted:

So when the tracks pulled out, I just through-bolted the cars at the aftmost position. Eventually I added the inhauls, and I've found that they are far more effective at achieving optimum sail shape than the moving cars ever were, let alone being a whole lot easier to adjust from the windward rail!

FWIW, on the C&C 115 I crewed on a couple years ago, we almost always kept the cars all the way aft as well, with no inhauls ...
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Postby GreenLake » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:05 pm

Tim, thanks for the report from experience.

If I read his instructions right, my sailmaker essentially recommended the most forward position...
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Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:04 pm

Hmmm ... interesting!

Seems to me that cars forward = tighter leach/looser foot, while cars aft = looser leach/tighter foot. Is this correct? It would jive with talbot's "religeon", in that in heavy air you want flatter sails, and vice versa. It's far easier to flatten the foot of the jib (it being the shorter edge, and being more in line with the pull of the sheet) than the leech?

All I know is that I can pretty much eliminate jib foot flogging/flutter by adjusting the inhauls. I set the sheet according to the point of sail, then do the fine tuning with the inhauls. When the telltales are telling good tales, I know I got it right, and the GPS usually agrees! :D

I think of sail shape in general the same way I look at wing shapes on airplanes: fighter jets have razor thin airfoils that are designed to perform their best at very high speeds and low angles of attack, while C-130's have big fat airfoils that produce a huge amount of lift at low speeds. We do the same thing designing ram air parachutes: great big, low aspect ratio, thick airfoil, high angle of attack, lightly loaded (lbs/sq ft) canopies are great for world champion accuracy jumpers to put their sharpened-heel shoe down on a 2 cm electronic scoring pad for a dead center 10 jumps out of 10, while a very small, very thin, high aspect ratio, low angle of attack, higly loaded canopy can go 300 yards 10 feet off the ground at 70 mph to win a swooping competition ... :o
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Postby GreenLake » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:32 am

I think you have the right idea about the airfoils.

Where the best default sheeting position is, whether forward or back, depends on the cut of the sail (and possibly its age).

So, it could be that the common denominator is that the main adjustment is via the inhauls, and if you treat the jibtracks as secondary and don't adjust them much, each sail has it's own "sweet spot".

My old sails were very sensitive and would flog/flutter upwind, and without inhauls, in some winds I could not stop that. Inhauls were magical. The new sails are much less prone to that effect, so a bad trim has more subtle symptoms.
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Postby talbot » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:01 pm

I use Intensity Sails, and they recommend aft sheeting in heavy wind. But it seems we all agree that the inhauls have the most effect.
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