Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pics)

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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby jeadstx » Fri May 15, 2015 12:23 am

Sounds like a good solution. Good luck getting the boat sailing.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby itguy1010 » Fri May 15, 2015 6:14 am

Wow, this sounds like a real PITA. From what I can gather by scouring all the DSII threads in maintenance and repair et al... it seems like CB issues dominate a lot of discussions.

My First Mate and I are taking our maiden voyage this weekend and I've gone through our new boat from stem to stern trying to ensure that we have no major "snafus" regarding equipment, rigging etc. Since the boat is on the trailer and I really don't feel like careening it just to confirm CB operation I am a little worried that I'm going to discover some problem. The original owner really kept this boat in outstanding condition and claims that the CB works fine so I'm just going to throw caution to the wind (pun intended) and launch her "as is".

Hope you get your CB problems fixed ASAP so you can get out on the water and enjoy your's. :)

Eric
Eric White
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73 DSII #6428
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby ldeikis » Sat May 16, 2015 12:47 pm

I have to believe that when it's working, it works without issue. But so far, yes, a pain in the butt.

To update the thread, it worked piss-poor. Board went down all the way (I assume--downhaul pulled all the way taut) , but when it was time to return to the ramp, i undid the cleated downhaul and (being careful to keep tension on both lines so they wouldnt get slack and jam in the trunk) tried to pull in the uphaul. No dice. I'm a strong guy with a physical job and I really put some muscle into it, to the point I was worried the braided line or one of the blocks might fail. Nothing. I pushed the downhaul line back into the trunk an inch or two to be sure it wasn't getting bound up in the groove where it passes towards the block, but it made no difference. Tried putting the boat in irons to relieve any side loading, nada. This was the beginning of a long series of events that aren't germane to the thread (outboard quit and wouldn't start--this is sailing on the Hudson river, with tides, current, and commercial traffic--followed by jib wrapping itself around the forestay, anchor dragging, and a very stressful approach under main alone to a sharp turn around a rough rock jetty to a tricky ramp with a second rough rock wall adjacent to it). I was ultimately able to pull a rope across the bottom of the boat and "help" the board fold up enough to get close enough in for the trailer, and the trailer itself pushed the board closed. I also discovered my new boat had several gallons of river water in the bilge by then...

It is hard not to be disheartened. Still excited to get her sorted, but kind of wishing I'd sought out a boat that the owner was keeping moored and sailing often. Be nice to know these issues don't exist.

Luke
Last edited by ldeikis on Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'74 DSII sailing Haverstraw Bay and the lower Hudson River
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby Swashbuckley » Sat May 16, 2015 1:21 pm

Well, shucks, sorry for the bad outing. I have had many similar multi faceted disasters myself. This is not an O'day monopoly. :roll: I will repeat this slowly 'I hate auxillary outboards, I hate auxillary outboards'. I will be interested to learn the cause of your stuck board. The leaks, well that is an O'day specialty. :) But I have to say she sails like a racehorse on redbull. :D
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby GreenLake » Sat May 16, 2015 6:38 pm

Luke,

if you can at all yard launch your boat and put her on her side (great if you can do it with mast raised, because it's easy to use the mast to keep the boat on her side).

That should give you some chance to perhaps observe what's happening. (Except that gravity rotated at 90 degrees may let the lines fall in places they wouldn't otherwise).
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby jeadstx » Sun May 17, 2015 8:59 am

I've always had more trouble with the DH rather than the UH. Since your DH line goes back along the CB trunk, rather than out the front of the trunk like later boats, could be part of the problem.

I hope your sail went well. Outboards only fail when you need them.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby ldeikis » Sun May 17, 2015 7:39 pm

I'm going to try to scoot it partially off the trailer onto some hay bales, or maybe onto some jackstands with boards across them (tied together so they can't splay) so I can operate the board in it's normal, vertical position. If that fails, I'll launch it in the backyard and use the mast and main halyard to tip her. I'm supposed to be building a shed in the backyard right now (spring boat prep is already behind schedule :roll: ) so domestic pressure to NOT spend more time on the boat is reasonably high. But she also doesn't like it parked in the yard, so we'll see where that goes.

I look at the outboard as a necessary evil given where I'd be sailing. I'm good with engines and mechanics--this thing was purring happily last week in a trashcan in the garage--but I may splurge for a newer japanese outboard... I don't mind doing maintenance and what-not, but I'd prefer the actual sailing outings to be less stressful. Breaking down out on the water is better than in an airplane or something, but it's a lot more stressful than being on the side of the road, where at least everything has STOPPED happening while you address the issue.

More to come when I discover it.

Luke
'74 DSII sailing Haverstraw Bay and the lower Hudson River
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby GreenLake » Sun May 17, 2015 10:20 pm

The following is not applicable to the case where CB or rudder are at issue, but many other problems can be fixed at leisure with the boat hove to. Almost as good as stopping by the side of the road. If you haven't tried it with your DS, make sure you do.

The final, hove to state is with the jib backwinded (the windward sheet is tight) and the tiller hard over to leeward. The main sheet loose, and CB down. The boat will drift slowly downwind, not dead downwind, but with a bit of forward component, and the boat will be not quite square to the wind. I've measured 1kt. You will be surprised how calm everything feels. The Jib will try to push the bow downwind, the tiller will try to push it upwind -- the result is balance.

The trick is to kill most or all momentum when heaving to. If you've left too much, the boat will continue whatever it was doing and not find that balance. Doing a tack where you leave the jib tight on the old side is one way, but make sure you do it slowly to kill most of the boat speed and to not fall too fast onto the new heading or the DS will just continue the tack. But maintain flow over the rudder; you don't want to stall completely. Another way is to head upwind, bring the jib over, and fall off again.

Once hove to, you can tie off the tiller. A slight tug on the mainsail will change the balance and the boat will add a little bit of speed forward, which changes the drift vector as well. Real experts supposedly can do a controlled drift downwind towards a dock or through marina openings that would be dicey to sail through before the wind (because of too much speed and no good way to dump it). I've used it to attempt "parallel parking" like this:

1016

Because the mainsail is not really engaged, it's a great way to fix mainsail issues. Over the years I've dealt with a halyard that had suddenly released, outhaul problems, a ripped out clew, and, time and again, setting or shaking out a reef.

All you do to start sailing again is to allow the jib to come across, bring the tiller amidships and sheet in.
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby SUNBIRD » Sun May 17, 2015 10:22 pm

Your downhaul cable has ripped its way mostly around hte CB edge, it should be attached near the lower forward corner (when CB is raised.)
Check a search of the DSA web, I found a PDF file showing a modifcation of attaching the 2 cables with one metal bat (not 2 tangs), unfortunately, the forum won't allow posting a PDF.

See digram below...
Attachments
OLD CB tangs.jpg
This shows someones modifications, but gives the location of the cables much clearer?
OLD CB tangs.jpg (101.51 KiB) Viewed 8022 times
WIDGEON CB Lines.jpg
Diagram for the Widgeon, but if you substitute cables for the lines, the positions may be close.
WIDGEON CB Lines.jpg (28.03 KiB) Viewed 8022 times
DS II_CB draw_71-73.jpg
DS II_CB draw_71-73.jpg (31.76 KiB) Viewed 8022 times
Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD"
1979 DS II, # 10201
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby ldeikis » Mon May 18, 2015 10:39 am

I don't think my downhaul "ripped" itself through the board, it was quite clearly intentionally attached where it was. Whether this was Oday's creativity or a previous owner is a moot point at this time.

I'm wondering if I can repurpose my stock block...

Image

...oriented so the cable passes up vertically from the leading edge of the board, around the block, and horizontally forward... Then build a block systems similar to my existing downhaul, which runs along the cuddy floor to/from the base of the last. It wouldn't be as flush to the floor as the uphaul, but it would be less in the way than running vertically. If I'm going to reengineer things, I'd rather not have the new routing go to the cuddy roof, just to preserve access into that space. I need to understand what has gone wrong before I start dremeling new holes in the boat, but if the cables are jamming on each other or alongside the board, I'm not opposed to this.

I could then epoxy a 1/2" ABS plumbing nipple in the hole where the downhaul previously lived (covered w a threaded cap), which also gets me an access point to push the centerboard down if it's stubborn.

Thoughts?

Luke
'74 DSII sailing Haverstraw Bay and the lower Hudson River
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby Swashbuckley » Thu May 21, 2015 3:37 pm

I like how you're thinking. Including turning the previous location into a failsafe access point.
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby ldeikis » Sun May 31, 2015 6:21 pm

I got the boat out and careened, and the downhaul HAD found its way alongside the board, jamming between the board and the trunk. I suspect this didn't happen with the original weird attachment point because the cable always had a straight shot from its attachment point to where it exited the trunk. I suspect the new attachment point directed the cable at a sharper angle towards the "v" it had sawn in the top of the trunk, causing way more friction, too.

I ended up dremeling a new hole in the forward top of the trunk, a bit above and aft of the stock uphaul hole. I made enough room in the new hole for my stock block to relocate there, then sealed the two layers of the hull together to prevent bilge leaks and misery. I used polyester resin. 5200 seems like a better choice but I didn't have any on hand. Hopefully this works. It's easy to access and do better if necessary.

Image

Installed the stock block, routing the downhaul over the block and horizontally forward, then re-rigged the stock line and pulleys between there and the mast. I was torn about whether to rig them so you pull back (easier to pull, but required putting a new hole in the cuddy wall, like the later boats) or forward (more awkward, but allows an easy rig with a bungee as a fail-safe). I went with the latter, though it will be easy to change in the future as it's all just clamps for now.

Image
In this image, you can see the block where the cable comes up on the far left, then there's a clamp (wrapped in tape) and a thimble connected to the stock lines and pulley. There's a bowline in the end of the line, so I tug it forward til the board's down, loop it around the mast and then connect it back to itself with that little bungee with the blue ball on it.

Went sailing today and it worked great--only thing I didn't foresee is that it's a little annoying to wrap the downhaul cable around the mast and pull it back aft because I keep my anchor bungee'd to the base of the mast. I was able to tuck the line through between the two and I don't think I'll change that rig--in the water with gravity helping, the board went down and back up with incredible ease. I haven't addressed the original hole in the trunk yet... My original thought was to grind it open enough to have a 1/2" threaded fitting with a cap, but on reflection that's removing an awful lot of material. I think I may clean it up prettier, fill the holes, and modify a rubber stopper to fit the oval hole. Easier, cheaper, less cutting the boat up. I don't know how in the world I would have gotten the board out without being able to poke through that hole, though, so I'm definitely NOT going to seal it up completely.

I also solved my (unrelated) motor issues. My efforts to solve the bilge leak have only been mostly successful, though, so I'll have to pull the boat off the mooring ball and haul the thing to the yard AGAIN. I fear it's rudder gudgeons.

Thanks for all the help. I'll post an update here if there's any more relevant details.

Luke
'74 DSII sailing Haverstraw Bay and the lower Hudson River
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby jeadstx » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:06 pm

Your set up is more like the later DS2 now. Glad to know it works. I'm sure you will find the bilge leak as well.

John
1976 Day Sailer II, #8075 - Completed the 2011, 2012, and 2013 Texas 200
1952 Beetle Boat Swan Catboat
Early Rhodes 19
1973 Mariner 2+2, #2607 - Completed 2014, 2015 and 2016 Texas 200
1969 Day Sailer I, #3229
Fleet 135; Canyon Lake, Texas
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Re: Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pi

Postby Swashbuckley » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:13 pm

Good job.
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