Non-stock downhaul attachment point: How to correct (pics)

[ldeikis]

If I've learned anything this spring, it's that I really should have prioritized getting this brand-new-to-me boat into the garage over the winter for some R&R. It's driving me nuts to be finding one thing after another that keep me from launching the boat and sailing! The boat is an early 74 DSII, HINBXDYD63800173.

I have the boat yard-launched and flipped for bottom paint and to reseal part of the hull/deck joint, among other things. While working on the boat, I noticed that the when the downhaul is tightened fully to the cleat, the board is less than 90* from the bottom by a very significant margin. Looking into the CB trunk from the (normally) bottom, it is clear that where the downhaul line is attached, at its most-taut the board is well shy of vertical. From the bottom paint lines on the board itself, though, it is apparent that for most of its life the board DID operate at a more-or-less vertical position. Also, the cable has sawed a groove into the top of the CB trunk where it leaves to meet the block on the top of the CB trunk.

The previous owner told me he had recently replaced the uphaul and downhaul cables, which I believe, since they look brand new and the pivot bolt and bushings are almost perfect. It looks like he had to cut and crimp the cable, perhaps to negotiate the hole where the downhaul line passes through the trunk.

The block arrangement in the cockpit and cuddy matches this:



...which I believe *should* be cabled like this:



BUT... my CB has the ss cable(s?) attached at essentially the same spot:



wide:


...which works fine for the uphaul, but means the downhaul is only pulling the board a bit past 45*.

Unrelated to that, there is this mystery of this weird little square spacer thing that fell out of a recess in the CB when I lifted it free:



What the heck is THAT?!

I ordered some of the new cables from Rudy, which came with the tangs to screw into the board, but I have no idea where or how I'm supposed to mount them so they do what they're meant to without interfering with each other. Would LOVE any input or suggestions from you with more DS experience on this. I'm VERY eager to get the thing out of the yard and into the river!

Thanks,

Luke in NY

[GreenLake]

The square hole would be typical for receiving a DS1 centerboard handle. Looks like what you have might be a DS1 -or- DSII combination CB. How the CB would work with either of two pivot points isn't entirely clear, but perhaps it's possible.

Your second diagram shows that the downhaul should in fact pull back on the top of the CB until it's in the vertical position. If that matches your configuration, I can't see why you would get the board stuck at 45°. Unless, for some reason, not all of the cable is pulled out. If there's a crimp on the cable that limits how far it can be pulled out, that might be an explanation.

But, I'm not a DSII expert.

[ldeikis]

Hey Greenlake--

Thanks for the quick reply. From my exhaustive readings of back-posts here, you are certainly one of the people with the most to offer. I drew a little drawing to show how my setup (in the photos) differs from the diagram I posted:



As you can see, at it's tightest the cable is not pulling the board all the way down, but rather a bit past 45. If the cable were attached at the TOP of the board, especially towards the front of the TOP edge, it would pull the board back on the pivot to a vertical (or more) position. While there is a ferrule in my CB trunk, it is not causing the issue (I have a very good view since the thing is upside down).

In searching more this morning, I also found the following thread

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4859&p=25601&hilit=centerboard+tang#p25601

Which seems to have a similar setup. Is it possible Oday did this botch themselves as a way of using up old DS1 centerboards? Seems awfully sloppy.

Luke

[jeadstx]

4th try to respond. Swashbuckely had the same configuration on his DSII, including the DSI centerboard. He re-configured the lines. Check with him.

[GreenLake]

UH and DH need to attach to different locations on the CB. Your hand-drawn diagram shows a config that can't work. The other diagram you had (the one that's rotated 90 degrees) seems to be the way things are supposed to work). Looks like you found the old threads relating to similar issues, so you should by now have enough to go by. (And yes, these boat builders happily "used up" parts from other models or even similar boats).

[Swashbuckley]

Wow, you have the exact configuration of board and cables that I had. Looks like the same gray epoxy filler in the square hole even. My board would only extend about 3/4 of the way down with the original setup. Look at the pics in my gallery. I have reconfigured the entire setup and the one time I have had the boat out the UH and DH worked well. One significant change from the original was that I moved the DH attachment point of the board forward to the leading edge just about where the curvature stops. A bit further around than you show in your sketch. This gave enough leverage and length of pull to fully extend the board. I also moved my cb trunk cable access points to improve the layout in my cockpit, personal choice not necessary. If I can be of help message me. I have not posted much recently as I have been trying to get my boat ready for the TX200. I started with a boat that had lots of issues and it has been quite a project, but I have had fun. Hope you are enjoying yours.

The leading edge is on the left in the pic below.

[ldeikis]

Swash,

It looks like we had identical oddballs, from Oday or just similarly demented previous owners!

I think I am going to move the downhaul as suggested--a question for you or anyone w a boat with stock lines that way: is it ok for the downhaul line to run alongside the board, or will it jam in the trunk? It seems like there's room... I think if I tried to route it up and over the board (up and over when in the UP position, that is) it's likely to either get fouled on the UH line or slip off of its own accord anyway. Also, did you just use SS screws to attach the tang to the board in the new place? Should I grind a depression and epoxy it in, or will that just make future repairs impossible? And can I just get some SS hardware from Lowes, or do I need to make a special trip to West Marine?

Thanks all for the guidance. I'll be pulling the board tomorrow to pull this off. Fingers crossed.

Luke

[Swashbuckley]

My opinion FWIW, SS from Lowes should work fine.
I get mine from tractor supply, they have a better selection. West marine is just too expensive.
After I spent several hours getting mine free from the original epoxy, I will not be re-epoxing it. I just know I will have to work on it again in the future.
I also feel that the cable will eventually hang up if it slips along side the board.
Here are some better pics on my control cable installation. There were several reasons I wanted to redo the control cables, one was the one you mentioned, another was I could not stand to have a known leak inside the cuddy where I want my dry storage. I also wanted to move the CB controls away from the Main and Jib sheet controls. So I redid the entire system, after a lot of thought and research and help on this forum. These pics should help you see what I did. Unfortunately a thunderstorm kept me from having the time to take pics when I was reinstalling the CB, so no pics of the attachments until next time.
Side view of the control cables. The DH is right next to the new support post, the UH is to the right or rear. I do not think you should go to this extreme but I had other issues to deal with.

In the pic below I am holding the DH cable so you can see it a little clearer. It cleats on the post behind my hand. I drilled a new hole about 1/32" larger than the cable through the trunk top and inserted the cable from the top so I could keep the original pulley on the top end of the cable. This hole is at a slight angle pointing toward the bow and as far forward as I could get it on the outside of the cuddy. I attached the DH cable to the leading edge of the board just above where the curvature starts (about where you have the x on your drawing). This routing reduces the length of cable that must follow the curve of the board when the board is stowed or Up. I used an eyebolt (longest and smallest they had, 1/4"x3") from Tractor Supply to attach the cable to the board. A SS tang and screws would also work, probably better.

I attached the UH cable on the trailing edge of the board about 1/2" above where the tapering begins. My UH lifts almost vertically from the attachment point, with as much leverage as possible, while keeping the attachment point out of the flow of water. The new UH trunk exit hole is outside the cuddy and directly above the board attachment point when the board is retracted. I put a lot of thought into these two attachment and access points. I wanted as much leverage as I could get and also fully extend and retract the board. My cables no longer cross each other as they did originally, and hopefully this will eliminate the tangled stuck cable problem. Which is why the original required bungees, etc. to keep the system working.

In this photo I am holding the DH line, the UH line is on the left. Both lines cleat on the post. I used a jam cleat on the DH so it would release easier in the event of a grounding. This boat is intended for the TX200 so I expect to ground.

From others I got this idea to install a permanent Emergency Down System for the board. This is a 1/2"x3" bolt threaded into the top back of the CB Trunk, just about where your DH pulley is located. IF the board gets stuck in the trunk slot from mud, oyster shells, warpage (my board has a definite kink), I simply unscrew the bolt and use an aluminum push rod to push the board down out of the trunk slot. I tested this and it worked very well.

So far this new system is working, still leaks, just not in the cuddy.

[jeadstx]

I think O'Day must have used DS I centerboards on the early DS II models. Two boats with identical boards built close to the same time makes me think this wasn't previous owners own ideas. The UH and DH line configuration used at some point after these boats (like my 1976 model) continued to be used on the DS II and DS III models. The later configuration the DH attaches at the lower front radius of the centerboard.

Ideiks, D&R Marine sells the cable attachments for the later configuration (UH & DH). http://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DS106b and http://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DS108

Also, you do not want to run any lines alongside the centerboard as it will cause the board to jam. The tangs pictured above are attached to the edges (upper for UH, front or lower radius for the DH).

John

[jeadstx]

This is a sketch of the later style CB control line attachments.

John

[ldeikis]

John,

The trouble is, the hole where my downhaul exits the trunk is currently back near where the main sheet block is, at the rear of the cb trunk, instead of in the top of the trunk at the front like in your pic. I think I'll just have to play around with it to see what my options are. I'm not interested in major trunk surgery, at least not right now. I'll have to play around and see what options exist. Maybe if I secure the downhaul to the top edge of the cb it will have the right angle to pull the board down without too much tendency to pull alongside the board... Although the UH and DH will be running nearly parallel with one another (tensioned in opposite directions) when the board is down. Part of me wants to just flip it back over and call it good enough for this season--if I can't find a good solution easily I may do just that. I'll post a follow up when I've figured out what to do.

Luke

[jeadstx]

I was just trying to show what change they made in the control lines. As near as I can tell, probably in late 1974 or maybe early 1975. I've looked at pictures of boats made in 1975 and it has the style pictured above. Swashbuckley is probably your best reference on your year DS II.

Your DH lines could be re-routed to the top of the centerboard trunk as shown (sealing the sides of the hole to prevent leaks). The UH line coming out the front of the trunk is the one that usually leaks.

For what it's worth, even tho I can get my board all the way down, I generally sail my DS with the board only down as far as you show in your sketch. Try sailing the boat and see how she handles, if there are difficulties, work on fixing them.

John

[Swashbuckley]

Yeah, don't do major surgery like I did unless its absolutely necessary. I think if you move your attachment point on the board, you will get what you need. Do the bungee thing on the line or just practice using both lines at once like I think Tim has written about. Good luck and get her on the water.

[GreenLake]

Wheel steering on big boats uses a steering quadrant that is pulled side to side by wires connected to the steering wheel. Now the interesting thing about those quadrants is that the wires cross, but they are often (always?) run in parallel grooves to keep them from rubbing each other. I wonder whether adding something like this to the top of the centerboard would improve operation? As the top of the CB is not immersed in the flow, there's no issue with it needing to be smooth and hydrodynamic. The only requirement is to keep within the maximal dimension of the trunk...

[ldeikis]

I ended up taking a middle path, balancing the "right" thing to do with the expedient thing... I've already spent too many breezy sunny days in the backyard.

I discovered that the cables I bought for a pretty penny from Rudy were just a tiny tiny bit too short for this setup... so I'm hoping to return those. Instead I picked up some SS cable locally and pretty much built the attachment system that Swashbuckley and I already had--cables anchored into recess in the CB, with swaged stops bedded in epoxy--except I've repositioned the downhaul line where it "should" be--on the leading edge of the board. I cut off the old downhaul line where it exited the CB, and am leaving the uphaul as it was. For now, I've run the DH over the top of the board and back out the stock hole in the top rear of the trunk. I'm not thrilled with the crappy path the cable takes on its way to the sheave--I opened up the groove it has worn a bit so it binds less, but at the end of the day it's still a steel cable on a fiberglass wear point... but it pulls the board to the correct position, and is positioned such that if I redo the trunk exit to mirror the later boats, I shouldn't need to mess with the cable's attachment to the CB. I used a clamp instead of a ferrule at the control end, so I'll be able to undo it and choose a better route in the fall without having to clip the cable.

I figure if it's been sailed 40 years like this, one more summer won't kill her, and I really need to balance the work/play scale a little.

If nothing else goes haywire, hoping to have the inaugural sail tomorrow afternoon.

Luke