Leak

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Leak

Postby jsbowman6 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:59 am

Since I got my Daysailer II, each time I take it out, I not about a cup or 2 of water out of the lower plug when I put it back on the ramp. Is the most likely place the auto bailer? If it is, do I just have to remove the nut inside the cockpit and the whole thing will come out?
Thanks
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Re: Leak

Postby DigitalMechanic » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:28 pm

You are getting gypped. I usually get a 5 gallon bucket's worth of sea water with every sail I take, lol. Well I used to, lol. So first I will say that you should pull that plug and then tilt the front of the boat up as far as you can on the trailer. Then tell us how much water really comes out of there. I know that I will only get a little bit of water out unless I tilt the trailer and push all the water in the boat back to the plug in the transom. I usually just take the little front wheel of the tralier and set it on a upside down 5 gallon bucket. Then let it sit for a while so all the water drips out the plug. There are also 2 inspection ports in the cockpit floor up near the cuddy on most models DSII and later. If you open those up it will help dry out the inside of the hull (especially on a hot day it happens in a couple of hours).

So, that will help you get the water out. Keeping it from getting in is another story. There are 2 locations I can think to check right away....

1. The downhaul line on the centerboard trunk. On some boats I believe there is a gap between the outer hull and the inner-cuddy part of the hole in the centerboard trunk. You should be able to slide the plug out that is in the hole (in the cuddy) and see if you have this problem. I believe some have re-engineered that with a PVC pipe fitting and nipple to seal the space between the CB trunk and outer hull. Also, the nipple minimizes the amount of water that can squirt into the cuddy once that area is sealed. Fortunately on my boat, this hole has a solid wall throughout. Maybe a previous owner glassed it in, or O'Day corrected the problem by 1976?

2. This is where I was able to stop a lot of my leak problem, but not all of it. Still working on finding more leak spots. Go ahead and pull that bailer if you can. The original one was metal, but I presume that the boat does not have the original bailer on it. It has probably been replaced at some point with a white plastic bailer. If so, you should be able wrench it apart. Just use a wrench to twist the part in the sump. The top part of the bailer (in the sump) screws into the bottom part of the bailer under the boat, through a hole in the boat. That is where the problem may be.

A. When I put my bailer back together, I used teflon tape to seal the threads.
B. The ball in my bailer is gone and so was one of the pins. I did not care about the ball, as my boat rests on a trailer and not a mooring where it needs to self bail. So, I pulled the remaining pin out of the bailer and sealed both pin holes with a dab 3M 5200.
C. The hole in the hull that the bailer goes through... on my boat was no longer symmetrical, lol. The edges of that hole have taken another shape, a crooked circle looking hole. Thus the little rubber ring that is supposed to seal the hole... well that ain't going to work. So, when I put the bailer back together, I went around the outsider edge of the bottom of the bailer (under the boat) with caulk. If you sealed the place the pins were in the bailer, sealed the threads with teflon tape, and you caulk the edges of the bottom of the bailer, you now should have no remaining way for water to enter the boat through the bailer.... In theory, lol

After I performing the above maintenance on my bailer I saw a lot less water in the hull after my sails. But there is still some water coming in from somewhere else, but very little.

Also, you might have rain water in there. The inspection ports in the cockpit floor will probably be a little leaky. This is easy to identify. Just pull the plug after a rain and tilt the trailer to see if any water comes out. If so, you might try and re-seal the inspection ports.
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Re: Leak

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:07 pm

DigitalMechanic wrote:B. The ball in my bailer is gone and so was one of the pins. I did not care about the ball, as my boat rests on a trailer and not a mooring where it needs to self bail. So, I pulled the remaining pin out of the bailer and sealed both pin holes with a dab 3M 5200.

Just to clarify DM, the auto bailer is not meant to empty the cockpit while at rest - mooring, slip, etc. For that the best bet is to leave the mooring drain unplugged (the one just above the waterline). The auto bailer only works when the boat is sailing flat and moving at 3 kts or better. The little ball is meant to keep water from coming in when it is not, and the plug on the cockpit end is backup for that ...
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Leak

Postby DigitalMechanic » Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:37 pm

According to Rudy at DR Marine, he said that the ball is there to auto bail when on a mooring. I thought about replacing it, but he told me that if I were keeping the boat on the trailer, it was not really necessary. The bailer would still suck the water out while under way, just pull the plug when the water needed to be drained. However, you definitely need to keep it plugged when not moving very fast, lol.
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Re: Leak

Postby TIM WEBB » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:53 am

Hmmm ... I'm not one to question what Rudy says, but mine has the ball, and has never auto-bailed when at rest. The design of the thing is such that it needs water flowing past/around it in order to create the suction needed to drain, and the ball floats up and prevents back flow (in theory) when at rest. Now I suppose that if the boat were on a mooring where there was a 3 kt current it would be a different story! ;-P
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Leak

Postby jsbowman6 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:22 pm

Thanks for the reply's. Eventually, I'll get past the differences of this boat to my other. Had another good sail today with 3 mph winds, love have little wind this thing takes to go! Looks like the auto baler may be the first stab at the leak. Googling around looks like this thing works by creating a low pressure area behind the bulb on the bottom. I bet the confusion is the De Persia pug versus the top mooring cockpit plug. I know for a fact the previous owner warned me to remove the top most plug if you leave the boat in the water or on a trailer. I think his experience resulted in the sinking the boat!

Found this on the US patent office.
Per John L De Persia Patent:"Automatic boat bailers #US 2772648 A Application January 7, 1955, Serial No. 480,496 2 Claims. (Cl. 114-485 The present invention relates to automatic boat bailers for use in speed boats, row boats, and the like, which operate to suck the water from the boat bilge by means of suction created .by movement of the boat through the water."
http://www.google.com/patents/US2772648
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Re: Leak

Postby DigitalMechanic » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:43 pm

TIM WEBB wrote:Hmmm ... I'm not one to question what Rudy says, but mine has the ball, and has never auto-bailed when at rest. The design of the thing is such that it needs water flowing past/around it in order to create the suction needed to drain, and the ball floats up and prevents back flow (in theory) when at rest. Now I suppose that if the boat were on a mooring where there was a 3 kt current it would be a different story! ;-P


Lol, yep 3 kt current should do it. I may have misunderstood him? My engineer brain says it looks as how you have described it. My guess is that if it does self bail on a mooring there would have to be quite a bit of water built up in the boat to create enough pressure to push itself out? Then if that works you still are going to be doing some pumping by hand to get the rest. None the less, I really have not worried about it as I don't leave mine in the water all the time. I just concentrated on sealing up the leaks around it.
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Re: Leak

Postby DigitalMechanic » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:46 pm

jsbowman6 wrote:Thanks for the reply's. Eventually, I'll get past the differences of this boat to my other. Had another good sail today with 3 mph winds, love have little wind this thing takes to go! Looks like the auto baler may be the first stab at the leak. Googling around looks like this thing works by creating a low pressure area behind the bulb on the bottom. I bet the confusion is the De Persia pug versus the top mooring cockpit plug. I know for a fact the previous owner warned me to remove the top most plug if you leave the boat in the water or on a trailer. I think his experience resulted in the sinking the boat!

Found this on the US patent office.
Per John L De Persia Patent:"Automatic boat bailers #US 2772648 A Application January 7, 1955, Serial No. 480,496 2 Claims. (Cl. 114-485 The present invention relates to automatic boat bailers for use in speed boats, row boats, and the like, which operate to suck the water from the boat bilge by means of suction created .by movement of the boat through the water."
http://www.google.com/patents/US2772648


Well there we have it. The patent says it all. It will still bail without ball in it. You just have to plug the hole back up when the water is out and before the boat slows down.
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Re: Leak

Postby SUNBIRD » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:21 pm

water in slopwell.JPG
Picture showing about how much water collects In cockpit with self-bailer unplugged
water in slopwell.JPG (165.5 KiB) Viewed 9757 times
I've kept my boat on a mooring for 20 years and can say without a doubt that the autobailer WILL drain the cockpit while moored. Not 100%, since the ball on mine rarely seals completely, but as long as the water inside the cockpit is higher than that outside the boat, the pressure of that inside water will force the ball down and the water will drain. The 1" drainplug above the waterline will leave a lot more water in the cockpit than the autobailer does, the level of water sloshing around in my cockpit with the bailer open is well below that 1" drain hole. I'd say I get about 1-1.5 gallons that will collect over a week's time.

I leave the plug out of the autobailer while moored during the week, then insert the plug as soon as I come aboard to go sailing. I then bail out the left over water. Before going ashore (especially if rain is predicted!) I remove the plug and any rain water drains out while at rest.
In the above picture, the black line across the well is the track that supports a floorboard that I made to cover the slopwell and allow me to strap down my 3-gallon gas tank. I have also added an after deck like on the DS I. Netting at top holds a type IV throwable cushion up under the deck for easy access if needed. As you can see, water is only up to the level of the lower gudgeon bolts.
Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD"
1979 DS II, # 10201
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Re: Leak

Postby TIM WEBB » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:34 pm

Now THAT makes sense. I should have added in my previous comments that not only does the bailer only work (to drain the cockpit completely) when the boat is moving and flat, but it also requires a sufficient amount of H2O in the cockpit in order to "get it going". Kinda like having to prime an old-timey well pump. So, yes, now I can see that any level of water in the cockpit above the waterline would go out at rest, again regardless of whether or not the ball is present. Conversely, I also did a little experiment before I had the bailer, and just had a plug in the open thru-hole: one day, just drifting along in very light air, I pulled the plug out of the hole. I wanted to see how much water would come in if the plug were ever compromised. Sure enough, it stopped coming in when it reached the waterline, which is just about where the water level is in your pic SB.

Hmmm ... Archimedes was right after all! ;-P
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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