Where to start?

Topics primarily or specifically about the DS2. Many topics are of general interest, so please use forum sections on Rigging, Sails, etc. where appropriate.

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Re: Where to start?

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:05 pm

The part on the floor of the cuddy that the very base of the mast, or mast stub in your hinged case, sits on is called the step. The foredeck would be the top area forward of the cuddy roof. More pesky terminology! Just make sure that when you reinstall the stub, you secure it to the step in some fashion, or else the stub will want to lift when you step (raise/lower) the mast. Yes, step has two different meanings here.

You are correct that the hinged spreaders are for the side stays, or shrouds, and you will want to use some thin wire or the like to secure the shrouds to the spreaders, then use spreader boots or some tape to cover the spreader ends to prevent chafing the main sail. The other spreaders and associated cord sound like jumper stays, which were found on the early DS's, and which most folks removed in order to get more, not less, flexibility at the top of the mast. Either your boat has a mast from a much earlier boat, or some PO added these to try to fix the bend. I suspect the latter, and I think most here would advise removal. Like you say, you'll need to remove them anyway to effect mast straightening.

Mast head replacement is fairly straightforward, with the earlier rivet removal advice applying here as well. Or, you might be able to just replace the sheaves. Either way, yes, floatation near the mast top is desirable, and you may find there is already foam in there (my boat did). You could easily add to or replace with pool noodle pieces or what have you. There are also external masthead flotation options, such as empty, sealed soda bottles, etc. I made a foam float that fit around the head of the main. Even if whatever you end up with as flotation wouldn't completely prevent turtling in a capsize, at least it buys you time to swim a throwable or similar out to the end of the mast before she goes completely upside down. And yes, intentional capsize drills are a good thing! Especially with kids aboard. Oh, and that reminds me: these boats have foam floatation up in the bow and under the seats, which can (and usually does) become waterlogged over time. Most folks replace the foam with pool noodles or soda bottles. There have been reports of funny looks from big box store cashiers when folks walk up with 40+ noodles in their arms! <grin>
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Where to start?

Postby GreenLake » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:47 pm

Sheaves: normally just punch out the pin that serves as the axle and then replace them with stainless steel clevis pins. On mine, the clevis pins were just too short to use cotter pins on them, but their curve allowed the use of wire rings instead.

The wire you use to fix spreaders on shrouds should be stainless. Shrouds should be horizontal or point slightly up when rig is tensioned. Theoretically, they would be set to bisect the angle the shroud makes around them, as that would mean there is no moment up or down. However, many spreader hinges assume a horizontal spreader position and that is usually good enough - if the spreader is fixed so it can't slide down.

To get at (possibly) waterlogged foam cut some large size access ports (also called deck plates). Look up older threads for best placement on a DS2.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Where to start?

Postby GreenLake » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:54 pm

On older DS boats there were diamond stays that attempted to stiffen the upper mast. I think you have that (or an aftermarket replacement for same). Nylon would be useless (stretchy) for the purpose, but Dyneema (e.g. AmSteel) would work well - sure it's not that?

Normally, the conclusion is that the DS doesn't need the stiffening and many owners have removed the diamond stays. In your case, it looks like they were indeed used to apply some corrective (prebend) to the upper mast.

However, if you succeed in straightening the mast, you will either not need that setup or less tension in it. But, if it can be set up to force the mast to be straight, you could, of course sail with it that way.... just not if these ropes are really Nylon. (Amsteel is really slick, feels almost like Teflon, and almost does not stretch).
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Re: Where to start?

Postby Shagbark » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:53 pm

I could very well be wrong, but I would think that aluminum rivets would work on attaching the hinge plate to the mast. When the mast is raised, there should be very little pressure on the rivets. Additionally, this would cut down on dissimilar metal corrosion. Lastly, if there is a problem with too much stress ( for whatever reason) I would want the rivets to pop before the mast material does. My two cents, others may want to weigh in, I'm certainly not a mechanical engineer.
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Re: Where to start?

Postby GreenLake » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:05 pm

When you raise a mast, that's when the load on the rivets is strongest. Aluminum rivets should be up to that task, though.

If the hinge plate is stainless steel, then you still have the dissimilar metals issue. One way to deal with that is to coat the rivet with Tef-Gel before inserting, that will isolate it electrically....
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Re: Where to start?

Postby TIM WEBB » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:55 am

FWIW, the instructions that come with the hinge from D&R call for drilling and tapping the mast and hinge casting, using 1/4-20 x 1/2" SS machine screws. I have no idea what the casting is made out of (cast aluminum? pot metal?), but there's really no way around the fact that you will have corrosion in the area, since the hinge plates are SS. andycayman, the failure your mast has already experienced indicates that at least the hinge plate will bend before the casting departs the mast extrusion.
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Where to start?

Postby GreenLake » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:59 am

If you use SS screws in aluminum, definitely use TefGel for galvanic isolation.
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Re: Where to start?

Postby andycayman » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:08 am

Thanks for all the great info everyone. It is really helping me figure out "whats next". This week I have ordered some new parts from Rudy, including a new tabernacle assembly as just the plate doesnt seem to be available and the old one is very bent and I dont really want to hammer it straight.

The foot casting (on the floor inside the cuddy) is badly worn thin on the stbd side, I have not tried to get it out yet, hopefully the screws are in captive nuts as I cant see any way to get to the underside of the cuddy floor without creating a new inspection plate, and that scares me a bit. The wear is quite considerable, and I wonder if it may be an indication of something ominous?

Image

Today is the day to have a go at mast straightening, there are some big fat wooden power poles set up at the club, I think for testing or teaching rigging... no idea what they are for but they seem to be ideally spaced, so a couple of old car tyres, some builders plumb line and a beer or two.. the end result will hopefully be a true mast and not an 'S' shaped mast.

The frustration here is that I cant step the mast and put all the rigging on and hoist the sails to see what shape they are in until I get the tabernacle sorted. Although I did lay the sails out in my yard and they look pretty ropey, so I am probably going to replace them. The clips on the jib are green and gunked up, and half of them are seized, there are one or two small repairs where the stitching is a bit loose, and the number on the main sail doesn't match the hull number, but it does have a red DS on it.

So if I do need to replace the sails, what are everyones thoughts on jib rollers? (roller furling?), is that a worthwhile investment? and if so any recommendations as I do not see any on D&R specifically for the DSII.

Thanks again for the great advice.
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Re: Where to start?

Postby TIM WEBB » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:00 am

Not sure what would cause that wear on the step, but it does look like it has a hole for some kind of pin to hold the mast stub in place. I'd just go ahead and replace it. I believe the screws are wood screws. There is plywood glassed in under the cuddy sole in that location. There is also a compression post under there:
1768
On some boats, these posts were, um, not installed so well? Hopefully yours is fine. You *can* install inspection ports in the cuddy sole, but there are stringers under it that you need to be aware of.

How did your mast straightening efforts go? Hope you had "fun"!

Just do yourself a favor and get new sails now, be they from D&R, Intensity, etc. You'll need to eventually, so you might as well start out with a fresh set. Best investment you'll ever make in your boat!

Folks have put furlers on DS's, but most go with a simple jib downhaul. You can make a homemade furler with PVC parts from your local big box store. Just youtube it.
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Where to start?

Postby GreenLake » Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:24 pm

Mast step. If the foot of the mast is held firmly in place, that should be enough, and as long as that works, I would not think a replacement urgent. (But it's always hard to get a complete take on a situation from afar). In your case, I would definitely want to know what causes the wear you observe. Throwing a new mast step at it with the underlying condition uncorrected might not be the best answer. What does the foot of the mast look like? Corresponding wear pattern?

Sails: the sails for the various DS models are all the same. The green gunk on the hanks for your jib speaks more about how the sail was stored/cared for than the state of the fabric. The thing with sails is that they are a consumable part - think brakes on a car - that have to be replaced at regular intervals in terms of exposure to UV as well as distanced sailed.

As sails age they lose their shape and instead of acting like properly shaped airfoils, the wind will pull them into inefficient, baggy shapes. You'll eventually want to get new ones; if the ones you have look iffy/old/worn or "ropey" then it might be time to get a new set. There are a number of places that make and/or sell sails for the DS. There's a bit of a price range as well, but good sails are rarely cheap. They will seem especially expensive if compared to the price of a used hull.

While the boat will still move on the water with older sails, they will create more drag and more heel at the same time. Beyond a certain point, you won't be able to improve your skills in trimming sails, because old sails simply can't be trimmed right. An older jib may also no longer set without the leech "fluttering" which then further destroys the sail fabric.

For more discussion on sails, check the "Sails" section of this forum.

Furler: on a big keel boat, taking down and raising a jib takes work. A roller furler therefore saves a lot of effort. On a smaller boat, it may not be worth it. I own two boats, one came with a furler. It has managed to jam in both the furled and unfurled position; the hanked on jib on my DS has never caused me any issues - I tend to leave it up in some situations where I would have furled a roller-furled one (like when flying a spinnaker) but without ill effects. Some people rig a thin line to be able to positively pull down the jib (downhaul). In my view useful only if you need to pull down the jib in high winds.
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Re: Where to start?

Postby andycayman » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:13 pm

Apologies for the delay in my response, as I have been busy at work and waiting for my spare parts to arrive, and they did this afternoon, so as soon as I can get some free time I will be replacing the essentials.

I have a fresh casting for the step of the mast and will replace it eventually, but for now I will heed GL's advice and as long as the mast is firmly set I probably do not need to rush into trying to replace it. I have the new tabernacle assembly and will decide if I need to replace the castings at this time, or just the tabernacle hinge plates. The new castings are not drilled which means if I do replace the castings I need to drill and tap them to take the bolts that came with the kit, which may be preferable to using rivets.

I do still have an issue with the stemhead, Rudy did not have the one for the day sailer so he shipped me an alternative, problem is that the alternative has four holes instead of two, so I would need to figure out how to make the new holes and associated threaded anchors, that area does not look very accessible so it is probably more drama than I need. I may see if a local machine shop can make me a new one unless someone knows where I can get a new one?

@Tim: I wimped out of the mast bending antics, based on advice of one of the sailing coaches at the club, I will raise the mast on the new tabernacle and then get the rigging and sails up, from there I will be able to asses how bad the bend is, no doubt with bucket-fulls of advice from the sailing club folks. That will also let me assess the condition of the rigging and sails... and also with the ability to step the mast I will be able to careen the boat to get at the c/b to sort the uphaul and fit a new bolt and rubber washer.

As for sails, I want to get them up for some local expertise to see before committing to that expense, but I am 90% of the way there to placing an order for new ones, what everyone is saying makes total sense and I think the money will be well spent. I will probably replace the rigging too. And the furler will wait too, thanks for clarifying, working this boat should be all part of the fun.. right?

Thank you all for the support and information so far, it is absolutely invaluable and much appreciated!
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Re: Where to start?

Postby GreenLake » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:58 am

There's no rush. Sounds like you are getting good local "eyes" and expertise on your projects, that always helps.

On the stemhead, a local fabricator should be able to run you up a part that is just as good as what you had before it got bent.

The way these fittings are supported, in case nobody wrote that already, is with a backing plate that is drilled and tapped. There usually is an L-shaped bracket that ties things down to the bow, because the deck, by itself is not strong enough and can be ripped open.

The bracket is usually glassed in a bit, so hard to see and verify that it is really there and connects up properly. However, seeing that your fitting was bent and the deck did not come up, whatever holds on to it is good for a load that will bend a fitting.

Rigging the boat and checking things out before making any repairs is always a good idea. Also gives you a feeling for how things are supposed to go together and of something's off with a replacement, you can more confidently spot that. (Less likely scenario is that the replacement will fit so much better that the original that you can't imagine how it went together before...).

As long as you can put a working (and reasonably seaworthy) boat together with the parts you have, there's nothing that would speak against taking it out for a sea trial in moderate/easy conditions. That will tell you how things are supposed to work in the original configuration and you can have a better idea where that is or isn't working for you.

You might also find that some stuff that looked solid, isn't. (We ripped half of a jib track off the boat on the maiden voyage because the PO did not screw them in correctly after refinishing the coamings - they were otherwise serviceable and might have been used for a few more years, but the loosened end bent and snapped and that was literally the first upgrade I did).

Mast bending is something you don't want to rush into, and when you do it, go slowly and be content with small progress (some fraction of an inch at each pass). Done that way and all manually without using cars, jacks etc. it will probably work fine. When you are ready.
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Re: Where to start?

Postby Zinger88 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:24 am

As for new sails...I went with a set of Intensity Sails http://www.intensitysails.com last Fall and have had good success with them . Relatively inexpensive but good quality and on sale right now (Main $279.99 Jib $169.99). Received my sails surprising quickly once the order was placed...
Jim H
'76 Daysailer II, Sail #7920, Windsong
Burton, TX
~~ _/) ~
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Re: Where to start?

Postby andycayman » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:05 am

Thanks GL, all good advice.

@ZInger88, thank you.. great resource, and I really want to take advantage of the "sail" price (see what I did there?).. Can I be confident that the sails on the site will fit my DS2?, and do I need to purchase any other parts such as the clips that secure the jib?

Thanks again everyone.
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Re: Where to start?

Postby Alan » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:02 pm

I ordered Intensity sails for my 1980 DSII. They fit fine, and they came with the clips to hank the jib onto the forestay. They also came with a sail bag, a kit of punch-out sail numbers, and tell-tales for the jib. The tell-tales weren't attached to the jib. I asked for advice from Intensity on how to place them, but that might be an interesting topic for the forum.
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