Detached jib sheet tracks

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Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby Glenpeter » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:06 am

My jib sheet tracks fixed with screws situated on the seat back near the cubby bulkhead have pulled out.I propose fixing this by installing a 4" deck plate below the fixture holes and putting a predrilled aluminum strip backplate behind the seat back and thru bolting. Before going ahead and cutting a hole I would appreciate any input on whether this is a suitable solution or are there going to be any problems with the structure with cutting the seat back in that area? Thanks
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby TIM WEBB » Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:01 pm

Hi, and welcome to the forum!

This is a common issue with the DS2, and the fix is much as you describe. There is wood glassed in behind the seat backs, and it eventually lets the screws go. Most folks gain access by putting the inspection ports on the forward sides of the cuddy bulkhead, and just use large fender washers to back the bolts.

Starboard side:
1009

Port side:
2531
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby Glenpeter » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:37 pm

Many thanks for your prompt response,the pictures are very helpful and I now know what sits behind the fixture position.
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:22 pm

You are welcome, and to give credit were it's due, I got those photos from Roger Conrad, who covers this repair in his excellent DS2 book.
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby badgley » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:41 am

I literally just did this repair two weeks ago - kind of slow going (and hot), working in the cuddy, but otherwise very easy. Just a note - you might want to have some material for backing blocks handy. I was surprised to find out that my plywood backing was only glassed in the middle, but not on the ends, where the larger screws are. O'Day quality control at it's finest. One plywood strip was totally rotten, about the consistency of wet newspaper. So I had to blindly scrape/pull the ends out and cut two small backing blocks for the larger bolts on the port side. Otherwise everything else was backed by glass or sound wood and the fender washers tightened everything up solidly.

Also, just watch that when you cut the holes for the ports, you clear the benches - there is very little space between those and the bulkhead from behind. I put my first one a little close because I wasn't paying attention and getting nuts on a couple of the bolts for the inspection plate was a much bigger pain than it needed to be.
Brian Badgley
1982 DS II #10911 EGRETTA
Blacksburg, VA, USA
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby Glenpeter » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:05 am

Thank you for the tips.
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby IslandFarmer » Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:21 pm

Here's a list of threads dealing with this issue. I thought it might be helpful. I am now in the same boat (after a season and a half). :D

Jib sheet turning block location [Rigging]
holstein Backing place [sic, plate] » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:03 pm wrote:GreenLake, Were you able to install a backing plate behind the track ??

End of Boom Rigging & Rigging of Mainsheet Downhaul [Day Sailor II only]
Peterw11 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:19 am wrote:"(I'll spare the drama of the latter part of our cruise yesterday when both of the jib cars ripped out of the gunwales...)"
I think that happens to a lot of new owners of old boats. It happened to me on my first sail, as well.

Alternative Setup to Jib Cars? [Day Sailor II only]
danamags » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:26 am wrote:So in what might be described as the maiden voyage (as a new owner of an old boat), both of the jib cars and tracks were torn out of the gunwales under the stress of having the jib sheeted while sailing close haul - not at the same time, but one came out, which I then simply used a horn cleat near the stern to keep the jib under control when needed on that side, using the remaining jib car/track to handle it when on the other side - until, of course, that one ripped out of the fiberglass, as well.

Re: jib sheet leads [Rigging]
Salty Dog » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:23 pm wrote:Greenlake
I have swivel cleats w/ fair lead mounted on top of my coaming about a foot or so back from my cuddy top. [...] I am going to replace them with same but better quality cleats in same place due to recent cleat failure trouble During a race.

Re: Daysailer Jib Car? [Rigging]
cotuitds2 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:46 pm wrote:Can anyone provide some input on mounting the jib car track that is linked above or other hardware on the side of the cockpit or on the rail. I like the idea of getting cam cleats along the sides of the cockpit so that I can single hand more easily vs. routing on to the centerboard which I consistently find just out of reach. Other than drilling a hole and putting in an inspection port is there a way to securely affix a new jib car track or a cam cleat? Will pop rivets be strong enough? Is there another expanding piece of hardware that I can attach blind? What's behind that part of the cockpit? Is there an epoxy that I could use in combination with hardware that would be credible?

GreenLake » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:19 pm wrote:I would not trust unsupported deck molding with holding fasterners for a jib track. Not just for the point loads from each fastener, but also to distribute the total sheet load a bit, I would think some sort of backing would be useful. The minute you come to that conclusion, there's no way around adding an inspection port. (Now, if you don't believe in a backing plate, but think fender washers are sufficient, you'd still need an inspection port.) Adding a port is an extra step, but it's quite manageable. . . .

Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace? [Day Sailor II only]
SpeckledTrout » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:35 pm wrote:Green Lake, when you installed the jib tracks did you also install backing plates? Looks like your DSI has teak trim so perhaps you were able to get behind that. I have a DSII and would need to install access ports in order to get behind the cockpit side.


Related topic . . .
Jib Cleats [Day Sailor II only]
Skippa» Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:51 pm wrote:Hello All
Launched my "new to me" 1980 DSII, last weekend and got a chance to single hand her last night. I am in love with my new boat but there a couple of things I want to add or change.
The jib sheets seem to lead the wrong direction for my liking and looking at jib track and cars I don't see how I can change this direction with out upgrading to another manufacture.
Last edited by IslandFarmer on Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1983 DSII 12250
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby GreenLake » Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:30 pm

Jib tracks can rip out even for a DS1. They are normally held by wood-screws and the wood under the deck (carlins) may get dry rot or otherwise the screws will lose their grip.

Having that happen on a maiden voyage (test sail) is just generally how these things go (happened to me that way, as well).
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby IslandFarmer » Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:01 pm

Here are my (port side) pictures:
2894289728982896

from elsewhere I've read:

End of Boom Rigging & Rigging of Mainsheet Downhaul [Day Sailor II only]
Peterw11 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:19 am wrote:An adequate fix is to merely move the tracks an inch or so horizontally, drill a couple of new holes, and reattach the jib tracks, which is what I did. It doesn't hurt if you add a couple of additional screws evenly distrbuted along the length of the track, just to add a bit more strength to the attachment points.

Talbot » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:12 pm wrote: Jib tracks This should probably move to a new topic, but as long as we're here...
The tracks are bolted through plywood that is glassed to the inner hull. It probably is rotten. Rudi at D&R Marine suggests moving the tracks to the top of the coaming (where they ended up on the DS III) where the force is shear rather than straight out.
My preference would be to install inspection ports aft of the tracks, such that you can get in there and through-bolt the tracks into their original locations, possibly with an additional backing plate. (I'm not sure how someone would actually remove the rotten wood, because it's encased in a pocket of fiberglass.)

GreenLake » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:30 pm wrote:I'm also a member of the "jib track failure on maiden voyage" club, but on a DS1. In my case the jib track broke, and I used the occasion to upgrade to modern hardware. Assuming that you want to keep your hardware, and that it wasn't damaged, it should be possible to "rejuvenate" the holes into which the screws were drilled.

I think I fall into category 2 of GL's recommendations which he implies should work on a DSII. As he explains:
"if you have access to the back of your tracks, then I would simplify the procedure to
  1. Drill to size of bolt
  2. Seal any wood with thin epoxy
  3. Wax bolt and track
  4. Through-bolt with a very large washer on the inside"

Alternative Setup to Jib Cars?
TIM WEBB » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:46 pm wrote:... when the tracks pulled out, I just through-bolted the cars at the aftmost position. Eventually I added the inhauls, ...


The above has been very helpful for my plan to replace my port (and eventually starboard) jib tracks in the same place. I have two decisions, one made, and two questions:
  • Decision 1: I plan to add inspection ports in the bulkhead to access the space behind the seats as explained by Roger Conrad in his DSII manual (do not plan on adding oarlocks, Talbot :D ). Like Roger, I will put in 4" ports and will cut carefully per Badgley's experience above (2018). This will allow me to assess/remove/repair damage and determine if I need a reinforcing backing plate. This also seems the best time to repair the spider cracks around the aft-most screw hole, following instructions Roger put in his addendum on the basics of fiberglass repair.
  • Decision 2/Question 1: Put tracks back in the exact same place (replace screws with bolts) with rejuvenated holes and/or reinforced backing plate as described by Talbot and GreenLake (above) and Roger (in manual) OR slightly forward/aft of the original location (per Peterw11)? (While I appreciate Tim's 2011 solution, I like the idea of having a track.)

Materials needed: jib track(s), bolts, nuts and fender washers, inspection ports & rotary tool or jig saw (per DSII manual p69), drill (for fiberglass and maybe also for jib track if I add a couple of holes per Peter's suggestion), wax, silicone, epoxy, masking/duct tape to protect the rings on said ports, pencil and square.

Have ready: material (plywood?) to reinforce or replace backing plate depending on damage; saw for cutting to size
Question 2: What thickness?

I am such a neophyte with all of this repair stuff ... not second nature, don't have my own shop, and may attempt some of this while tied to a dock (200 yards from barn with supplies) ... so please forgive the length and detail of this post. Thoughts and suggestions are welcome. I think I'm mostly looking for moral support. :)
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby GreenLake » Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:49 pm

Let me be the first to congratulate you on the thoughtful research you've put into this.

For some of the alternatives there isn't necessarily a "best" or "perfect" answer. Many similar solutions will work equally well in practice.

I used the occasion where mine pulled out to move to a different set of hardware. (In my case, Harken small boat tracks. I think they are still available).

The difference is, of course, that they come with cars that don't have a cleat/block combo. Something I find preferable because of the way it allows me to singlehand these without cleating (by using ratchet blocks). But all that is a matter of taste.

For example, the way the cars work on my Harken tracks, I could mount something like this
https://www.landfallnavigation.com/rons ... elhea.html
on them (using the becket and not the swivel) if I wanted block and cleat in one).

Image
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby IslandFarmer » Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:12 pm

Thank you for the compliment, Green Lake. As it happens, I decided to keep my boat out of the water after hauling for tropical storm Henri, so was able to cut my inspection port within feet of the barn and tools. Still, was very glad for all the thinking I did on my computer at home before tackling the job. Like badgley (Brian Badgley), I tackled this on a super hot and humid day, but found the padding of my little backpack helpful to cushion head, elbow, knees, etc. as I changed positions. For breaks, I lay on my back and waved my hands in the breeze coming over the cuddy. (At least I was in the shade. :) )

I spent about an hour measuring and marking before tracing the inverted screw cap just where I wanted it. Based on Brian's experience, I moved my hole 1/4" closer to the hull/outside (away from the seat/center of boat) than as illustrated in Roger's book with the pictures Tim Webb posted above. If anyone is interested, I can share measurements.

Being unfamiliar with cutting fiberglass, I used hand tools: (1) an old brace and ~1/4" bit (~6" long after inserting) with a feed screw (sharp point at the end); (2) a Master AllSaw whose tip was small enough to insert in my holes (still available for wood and metal); (3) a semi-round file. I made a practice hole in the middle and then cut about an inch straight to get the feel for the saw. Then put two holes on the circle and by bending the saw and putting a lot of pressure, pretty managed to make a circle (took about an hour for the cut). Used the file to round out some straight places and got a perfect fit of the flange. Will save drilling holes for screws for another day. Actually, since it's such a snug fit, I may forgo. Not like this port is going to see water . . . unless I capsize, which is always an outside possibility. :)

I took a bunch of "blind" photos through my new port. These two show exactly what Brian described finding behind his pulled out jib track.
2940 2941
Fiberglass covering only the middle of the board and rotting plywood on the ends. I removed a couple of handfuls of rot and will tackle more cleanup this weekend. I guess I can check the soundness of the wood including behind the fiberglass by jabbing a screwdriver at it. . . .

Does anyone have an "after" photo of this backside repair? (I will PM Brian if no one else posts.)
Do I need to fiberglass over any new wood I put back there or can I assume that what I put there will last 38 years (12250 was built in 1983) so I won't need to worry about it (I'm 61), or some other way to handle this?
I would still love answers to my question 1 in previous post. (My Q2, thickness Q, is answered by seeing what is there now.)
FYI, when answering . . . I think I read that there are two types on this forum . . . I'm not the sort who enjoys spending hours making improvements over the winter. (I'm out on my xc skis!)

I'm still a ways from deciding what to install for new jib tracks. Some interesting options. I'll be waiting to see what Rudy offers this fall.
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby GreenLake » Thu Sep 02, 2021 2:19 pm

You should coat wood with epoxy. Not fiberglass, just the resin. On all six sides. That will seal out moisture (even the vapor, which is the idea). But you need to seal any holes you drill as well. You could use a penetrating epoxy if you feel like it, because you don't need a "skin" on fully internal wood, just something that creates the seal.

System Three S-1 or Clear Coat (or even the epoxy part of the RotFix) are all good choices. If you happen to have laminating epoxy sitting around that you won't use up for true fiberglass work, use that.
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby IslandFarmer » Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:46 pm

Okay. Six sides, meaning cover it with resin before I put it in place. Got it.
Sounds like next steps are: (1) clearing out rotten wood behind the seat; (2) preparing (cutting, then covering with resin) new pieces of wood to replace the rotten sections; (3) repairing seat back (cockpit side) where the screws pulled out; (4) deciding whether or not to use the same holes or move an inch forward or aft; (5) buying bolts and fender washers.
Thanks for the product suggestions.
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby GreenLake » Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:04 pm

Good luck!
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Re: Detached jib sheet tracks

Postby IslandFarmer » Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:22 pm

Update:
My brother suggested using G10 fiberglass for a backing plate instead of wood so I bought a 12x12x1/4, cut it into thirds and glued two 4x18 strips, one for each side.

As for the new jib cars at D&R Marine, I learned this fall that they mount flat on the deck https://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DS147 ... meant for DSIII, not appropriate for DSII seat back tracks.

So, after stewing about this and reviewing old and new posts today, I think I'll give a go with the Ronstan block GreenLake suggested above or maybe the series 55 version of the same. It really is just what I envisioned in my head from the get go. TY. : )

I guess I'll start by ordering a new jib track from Rudy https://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DS146, so I can use the car I have, https://forum.daysailer.org/forum/gallery/image.php?album_id=1&image_id=3022 removing the fairlead & cam. Looks like I'll need to add a clevis pin.

Thanks to Andrew (Speckled Trout) for his thread original blocks? suggestions to replace? https://forum.daysailer.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5968 and Tom and GL for their comments.
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