Swim ladder, rope ladder cleat or pad eye

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Swim ladder, rope ladder cleat or pad eye

Postby Tipster1 » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:18 pm

I would like to carry a rope ladder to be available to hang off transom for emergency use. I used old fashioned 2 step ladder with J hooks recently and it was very marginal in utility. The boat is 45 years old. I have no idea of condition of material within transom but the fiberglass seems intact.

I am considering a cleat or Pad eye to be installed inside of transom. What size cleat/pad eye would group suggest and how would you fasten?
Thanks.
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Re: Swim ladder, rope ladder cleat or pad eye

Postby tomodda » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:18 pm

Define "Emergency Use." I ask because coming in over the transom is a real bear. Are you thinking about how to get back aboard if you fall overboard or how to get aboard after a capsize? Two different things, cuz a capsized, and presumably swamped, boat rides much lower.

Generally speaking, I prefer to board over the side... get a leg in and roll myself aboard. A boarding strap (look it up) helps IMMENSELY for a boarding over the side. I have two loops of rope that I rigged up for boarding, tied to each thwart, but keep "meaning to" get a real strap. Anyway, think about it, you have way more room to maneuver going aboard over the side and you use your legs instead of arms. On the other hand, if the boat is swamped in a seaway, you risk capsizing it again (first rule in capsize recovery, put the bow to the wind!). On the other, other hand, boat with head to the wind, you try and pull yourself in over the transom, bow rises up... boat falls off, and again rolls over... And coming over the transom you are sure to get yourself tangled up with the mainsheet bridle, motor, rudder, cleats, etc. And that's with a capsized boat, coming aboard after you go overboard is a whole other story .... exhausted, adrenaline rush, afraid, bulky lifejacket getting in the way. What other emergency scenarios do you have in mind? Think them thru, step by step.

Suggestion: anchor the boat in chest deep water and then try and get aboard. See what works better, side or transom. Big problem is that you have nowhere to put your legs. A ladder, rope, or strap will tend to just ride up under the boat, it's hard! Again, coming over the side means you can get your shoulders up on the coaming, hook your aftmost leg up onto the side deck, heel in the cockpit, and then roll/lever yourself in.. can't do that over the transom!

OK, I'm repeating myself, sorry. Good luck, and let us know how it works out!

Tom
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Re: Swim ladder, rope ladder cleat or pad eye

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:05 pm

Several years ago I took part in a Safety at Sea seminar, including jumping in the pool with full gear. I know I tried to exit the pool without using the stairs to see whether that was possible (the edge of the pool was about the same height as the DS freeboard). I don't remember that I failed, so it must have worked w/o problem. I'm pretty sure I tried the trick of immersing first so that you get the advantage of the buoyancy giving you an upward momentum. What I don't remember is whether/how much this process was helped by kicking at the wall of the pool (no steps there, but it may have steadied).
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Re: Swim ladder, rope ladder cleat or pad eye

Postby Tipster1 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:03 am

tomodda wrote:Define "Emergency Use." I ask because coming in over the transom is a real bear. Are you thinking about how to get back aboard if you fall overboard or how to get aboard after a capsize? Two different things, cuz a capsized, and presumably swamped, boat rides much lower.

Generally speaking, I prefer to board over the side... get a leg in and roll myself aboard. A boarding strap (look it up) helps IMMENSELY for a boarding over the side. I have two loops of rope that I rigged up for boarding, tied to each thwart, but keep "meaning to" get a real strap. Anyway, think about it, you have way more room to maneuver going aboard over the side and you use your legs instead of arms. On the other hand, if the boat is swamped in a seaway, you risk capsizing it again (first rule in capsize recovery, put the bow to the wind!). On the other, other hand, boat with head to the wind, you try and pull yourself in over the transom, bow rises up... boat falls off, and again rolls over... And coming over the transom you are sure to get yourself tangled up with the mainsheet bridle, motor, rudder, cleats, etc. And that's with a capsized boat, coming aboard after you go overboard is a whole other story .... exhausted, adrenaline rush, afraid, bulky lifejacket getting in the way. What other emergency scenarios do you have in mind? Think them thru, step by step.

Suggestion: anchor the boat in chest deep water and then try and get aboard. See what works better, side or transom. Big problem is that you have nowhere to put your legs. A ladder, rope, or strap will tend to just ride up under the boat, it's hard! Again, coming over the side means you can get your shoulders up on the coaming, hook your aftmost leg up onto the side deck, heel in the cockpit, and then roll/lever yourself in.. can't do that over the transom!

OK, I'm repeating myself, sorry. Good luck, and let us know how it works out!

Tom


Thanks for taking the time to reply, Tom. Good points about side vs transom. I had imagined leaving something in well in back of boat handy in emergency. I've considered a dragging line for sailing in brisk winds. No doubt, sea trials are key.
My DS had not capsized. I've had experience with capsized boats in the distant past and understand what's involved. Reboarding can be tricky, but freeboard not the issue.
In my situation, my crew did just fine on boat but the dinghy took him by surprise and threw him out after transfer from boat. Lowest step of an old 2 step ladder was not very low, so I took a bit of a heave to get that first step done. I like idea of a boarding strap. I found a demo. It confirms my theory that key is that the lowest point is deep and explains why the Davis Swim step works as well as it does in trials. I assembled a nice deep boarding ladder from 1 1/4" pvc and old halyard and was trying to decide where to attach to boat. Side and transom are both options.

My problem is that DSIIs don't have as many places to tie off things as DS1s. Only location so far on my boat is stern cleat. No thwarts or lifting rings. How do i create sturdy point to clip or tie on strap or rope ladder?

FYI:
Boarding strap demo: http://navigatorjoel.blogspot.com/2014/ ... traps.html
Test of multiple boarding systems: https://www.boatus.org/findings/44/
Davis boarding strap stirrup: https://www.davisinstruments.com/products/swim-stirrup
DIY Rope Boarding ladder: https://www.cruisingworld.com/how/how-m ... ng-ladder/
Another boarding strap.https://www.amazon.com/freneci-83-130cm ... 9XNJ&psc=1

Again, thanks for taking the time.
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Re: Swim ladder, rope ladder cleat or pad eye

Postby Tipster1 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:15 am

GreenLake wrote:Several years ago I took part in a Safety at Sea seminar, including jumping in the pool with full gear. I know I tried to exit the pool without using the stairs to see whether that was possible (the edge of the pool was about the same height as the DS freeboard). I don't remember that I failed, so it must have worked w/o problem. I'm pretty sure I tried the trick of immersing first so that you get the advantage of the buoyancy giving you an upward momentum. What I don't remember is whether/how much this process was helped by kicking at the wall of the pool (no steps there, but it may have steadied).


I've plenty of experience re-boarding kayaks and windsurfers. It's definitely harder to pull yourself out of pool or into a boat without first step (except for flush deck pools). A deep first step seems to be key. (please see my reply to Tom).

Question is how do I attach to boat?

Mark.
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Re: Swim ladder, rope ladder cleat or pad eye

Postby tomodda » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:54 am

Tipster1 wrote:How do I attach to boat?


A heft cleat with a good backing pad. I sail a DS1, so no idea what kind of access you have to the underside of the deck, either aft or on the sides. Bad, is all I know. I think you'll be adding an inspection port somewhere to get your backing pad in. And this attachment point could also be down low somewhere (front of the seats), as long as your strap is reachable from overboard. As in leave the strap on top of the seats, maybe velcro'ed on towards the back of the seat? Just throwing ideas out there, for what they're worth...

Tom
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Re: Swim ladder, rope ladder cleat or pad eye

Postby Tipster1 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:39 am

tomodda wrote:
Tipster1 wrote:How do I attach to boat?


A heft cleat with a good backing pad. I sail a DS1, so no idea what kind of access you have to the underside of the deck, either aft or on the sides. Bad, is all I know. I think you'll be adding an inspection port somewhere to get your backing pad in. And this attachment point could also be down low somewhere (front of the seats), as long as your strap is reachable from overboard. As in leave the strap on top of the seats, maybe velcro'ed on towards the back of the seat? Just throwing ideas out there, for what they're worth...

Tom


Thanks again , Tom. You've hit the nail on the head. Access behind FG interior is non existent on DSII unless you start cutting in access ports or drill a couple of test holes in transom to locate plywood is and its condition. Or through bolt, which is pretty extreme. The Davis Swim step comes with a flat "cleat" that keeps load close to surface. Screwed into fiberglass might be fine, maybe with a plastic anchor, but I can't find anything quite like it anywhere. I haven't found SS molly bolts yet, either.
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Re: Swim ladder, rope ladder cleat or pad eye

Postby tomodda » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:09 pm

Looks like your load on that swim ladder "pad" goes parallel and close to the surface. What if you use GL's trick of drilling a hole, filling it with epoxy, wrapping a bolt (the threads) in pipe tape, screwing the bolt into the wet epoxy and letting it form its own die-cut hole? He can put more details on how it works.

Tom
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Re: Swim ladder, rope ladder cleat or pad eye

Postby Tipster1 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:58 pm

tomodda wrote:Looks like your load on that swim ladder "pad" goes parallel and close to the surface. What if you use GL's trick of drilling a hole, filling it with epoxy, wrapping a bolt (the threads) in pipe tape, screwing the bolt into the wet epoxy and letting it form its own die-cut hole? He can put more details on how it works.

Tom


Very cool idea! Even simpler is just coating bolt with wax! I've done this before. Would you use a pad eye or just a cleat? Cleat keeps load closer to surface, but pad eye can have 4 screws. Hmm....
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