DaySailer.org Forum

We were sailing yesterday under light winds (8-10mph), but thought it would be a good chance to practice sailing under the jib only (with no reefs on the main, our response to heavy wind is to douse a sail).

While the direction of the wind was varying, it became clear that we were not able to point very high. I understand that dropping the main would move our center of effort well forward, but it started me wondering how high can one point with jib only? 60degrees? 65?

A related question is the effect of boat speed. With a stronger wind, can a boat under jib only point higher? My theory here is that centerboard and rudder are more effective if we have more flow over them.

Any thoughts would be welcome.

Regards,

--john

Hi John

Trying to sail in high winds with just the jib on a Daysailer is almost impossible. The wind will just keep pulling the bow to leeward and you will not have enough rudder to compensate. I know...I've tried. When the wind picks up, I either reef the main or drop the jib. Usually, I drop the jib. I have more weather helm, but it is easy to control. I cannot point as high, but it is acceptable. Plus now if the winds get too much to handle I can always reef the main.

Roger--

Thanks. That is excellent to read (way better than experiencing it).

Yesterday I had the added interest of docking under sail, which was putting me on a broad reach. I felt safer luffing the jib than the main, which could have put us underway again with the wrong shift.

Next time I'll send my crew up to drop the jib if winds get too high.

Thanks.

--jf

Approaching a dock downwind or on a reach, using the jib is not a bad idea. Especially downwind, you don't risk an accidental gybe, and on a reach it's indeed easier to depower the jib. Or to lower it quickly. But in those situations you don't need to point, which was the original question.

John,

In the Florida 120 this May, we had some very high winds (20 - 30 mph) on the first and second days. At one point I had shaken the reef out of the main and needed to put the reef back in. Do to the conditions, I lowered the main most of the way to reef and we were sailing on jib alone for a short time. The boat would not point at all on the jib and we lost considerable distance to leeward. On the jib alone, the best I can do is a broad reach.

FYI on taking down the jib, I rigged a simple jib down haul on my boat. A 1/8" line is tied to the head of the jib, run down the luff inside the hanks, through a block at the tack, and back to the cuddy. When I want the jib down, I release the halyard and pull the down haul. The jib comes down and I never leave the cockpit.

Chris, have you ever tried running the jib DH outside the hanks? I've never run mine (same setup as yours) inside the hanks, and it works just fine. Any particular advantage to having it inside? Seems like setup time would be longer?

Also, do you have something similar for the UPS, or is that a completely different animal?

I just leave the down haul line inside the hanks when the sail is rolled in the bag so it doesn't really affect setup time. I imagine it would work fine outside the hanks.

The UPS is hankless so I just grab the clew, gather it up and stuff it in the turtle bag.

Chris--

Between your downhaul at the tack and the sheets at the clew, will the jib stay safely on deck?

My current system is to send crew forward to drop the jib and use one of the sheets to tie it with a robber's knot. This works fine, but I can imagine if we were in rough conditions it would be better to keep everyone in the cockpit.

--john

ChrisB wrote:I just leave the down haul line inside the hanks when the sail is rolled in the bag so it doesn't really affect setup time. I imagine it would work fine outside the hanks.

Hmmm ... will have to give that a try. Might even save on setup time! Never thought of just leaving in inside the hanks - was thinking you'd have to "thread it" every time.

The UPS is hankless so I just grab the clew, gather it up and stuff it in the turtle bag.

Oh, yeah - duh Tim! ;-P

Interim wrote:Chris--

Between your downhaul at the tack and the sheets at the clew, will the jib stay safely on deck?

My current system is to send crew forward to drop the jib and use one of the sheets to tie it with a robber's knot. This works fine, but I can imagine if we were in rough conditions it would be better to keep everyone in the cockpit.

--john

Yes John, the jib will mostly stay on the foredeck, especially if you pull one sheet tight when it's down. For longer periods (anchored, overnight, etc.), I'll leave it lowered, but still hanked on with the halyard and downhaul tight, roll it up from the clew forward, and wrap the sheets around it to keep it securely in place.

And for in-between (dinner at the restaurant), a bungee or bit of rope tied around the flaked jib and to the cleat on the middle of the foredeck is secure enough for the purpose.

This it what it looks like when I'm in a hurry to get to the ice-cream place before it closes (unsuccessfully in that instance )



The new sails I got since then are still stiff so that they can actually be flaked rather than "wadded"....

GreenLake--

That looks similar to my current system. The robber's knot will hold the sail, but a tug on the sheet (from the cockpit) will undo it and we can hoist it quickly.

It's really an unstable knot, but with supervision it seems to do it's job. The downhaul method is interesting, and I will see what I can rig up. This whole topic is because I want to have a plan for responding to heavy winds, at which time it might not be ideal to send crew forward.

Regards,

--john

Ah, finally got what you mean by "robbers knot". I know it as Highwayman's Hitch, which isn't in any way a better name for it, but just the one I encountered it under. My preferred use for that is in docking.

Several docks in the area, including at my favorite restaurant, use "railings" along the edge of the dock for tying up, instead of cleats. Passing a bight under the railing and locking it with two interlocking slip knots gives the robbers knot. Not something I would use overnight, but if the slip knots are locked well, the knot won't come undone easily, other than by tugging on the free end. If worried, you can add any number of additional slip knots

Even, so, I usually get a table at the window

I don't really have a worked out strategy for heavy winds, they just aren't that common during the summer here. I can also reach all the way to the forestay with a paddle while standing in the cockpit, which is my go-to method for getting the jib all the way down (prior to docking, for example). I don't have the type of hanks that could keep a downhaul captive when not rigged and I rather not clutter up the boat with additional lines. If I did, I would go for a line tied to head and clew, held captive in the hanks, and with a small micro block lashed to the tack (not to the stem fitting). That would then be permanent part of the sail. It would be operated by reaching to the clew and grabbing it there. But as I don't have that type of hanks, that's just a design idea. While underway, the line would be kept tight by sail tension. I was thinking something like a 3mm or 4mm Amsteel would be nice and light for the purpose.

This thread seems to be unravelling into a couple of strands. Knitting them together...
1. Pointing with the jib is related to wind speed. In light winds, you can point at a modest angle, say enough to maneuver the boat into its dock as per the earlier discussion. So sailing under the jib alone is actually a light air/slow-speed technique. As we all seem to have found out, it is not a practical way to cope with strong winds on any point of sail above a beam reach.
2. Jib furling: Leaving the furling line inside the hanks as a semi-permanent part of the sail is fine, but larger lines (3mm/eighth-inch or larger) can bind in the hanks as the sail starts to flake. I went to North American Spyderline (a tiny 1.5mm double-braid Dyneema). That solved the problem.
3. More jib furling: A 2001 newsletter article on spinnaker handling by Mark Schroeder (who, by the way, sold me my first boat) tipped me off to the wonders of reverse purchase. We usually think of putting a block on the thing we want to move to gain mechanical advantage. But on a low-resistance line like a furler, you can put the block on the line you pull to gain -speed-. My Spyderline is tied off at peak and tack, but passes through a bullet block between the jib tack and the first hank. The bullet block is tied to 7' of 3/16 Sta-set that belays to a small cam on the cuddy top. When you yank on the Sta-set, every foot you haul aft brings the sail down two feet. One long tug slams the whole 10-foot luff to the deck in a second. Very nice when the jib refuses to drop in a strong wind.
4. I would love to hear more suggestions on how to control the doused sail on the deck in rough conditions. Something that does not begin with, "I send the crew forward to . . . ."

Like your "summing up" and really appreciate your point about reverse purchase.