DaySailer.org Forum

I was searching around to find a Forum dedicated to the Day Sailer.
Found you folks!

I'm a new owner of a DS17 and first time owning!
My first search here was to find the inclination angle of 'no return' for this boat and read a couple of interesting posts.
If I'm reading this right.. She's a 'flat sailer', well at least low heel angle..

I had her out the other night after work in some 8knot winds with just the mainsheet up to get used to her.
When the gusts came in she heeled fairly quick and released the sheet to get back to comfortable.
As the gusts persisted, I pushed it bit to see what she'd do.
I did press her into about 15-20 degrees and she ran very quickly, but wasn't comfortable not knowing the point of no return..
She also became very heavy the rudder and assumed I'd pushed too far.

So, question one: Was I at the edge?

I have had water pouring into the boat and was still able to ride it out.

Welcome to the site.

As the question is about angle of no return, I've moved this to "seamanship"

tommy4132 wrote:I have had water pouring into the boat and was still able to ride it out.

That matches my experience.

The DS, if overwhelmed, often responds by violently rounding up, rather than capsizing. I've had that happen 2-3 times, and it is a bit scary, and because of the sudden course change also disorienting.

As far as I could figure it out, the cause each time was a sudden gust with a big wind shift, which may be different from sailing the boat on the edge and then running into stronger wind.

When you sail "at the edge" are you hiking out?

People used to keelboats have asked me "shouldn't this heel further?", but usually, it's more efficient to keep the DS flat, the exception would be light winds. Some heel will help the boom and sails to fall to leeward so the wind doesn't have to overcome gravity to create sail shape. Also should reduce whetted surface, which is the leading contribution to drag a low speeds.

As I learned today, by mistake, she can heel pretty far!
Stronger winds than I would have preferred for learning the boat, but not so strong we weren't heading out.
Had a great run going, kept loosening the main to be were I wanted to be.
She reacted as I had hoped, right up till...

One tack, the main a little tighter than maybe she should have been and a gust!
Oh My!
Buried the gunwale!

Don't know if it was me breakin' the main loose, the boat righting itself or a combination of the two.

Looks like she'll take quite a heel!
Really don't wish to do that again anytime soon!

Yeah, it can be a bit scary.

My immediate suggestion would be for you to get a ratchet block for your main which would allow you to hold it in your hand even in stronger winds. That would allow you to ease the main without delay when a gust hits.

In time you'll get the hang of how much and in which order to weather gusts by heading up or playing the main, but not cleating the main is a good first step.

If you have one of those cleats that face down, go change it to one where the cleats face up (so that pulling up on the sheet disengages the cleat). I find that they downward facing ones tend to engage on their own, which is totally not what you want when sailing in unsteady stronger winds.

This is the block I use, the first image shows the one for the jib, the second for the main.

It is a difficult, but not impossible, boat to capsize. I've also had mine heeled to the point I was taking water over the side. Usually at that point, the rudder has stalled and the boat is rounding up. The thing you have be careful about in a roundup is to either regain rudder control by dumping the mainsail or continue with the "tack" the roundup begain. I've had a few paniced moments in a good breeze where the boat rounded up and backwinded the (cleated) jib and the boat began a capsize to the new leew side. If I hadn't released the jib sheet quickly, I would have gone over. Since then, I always keep the mainsheet in my hand and the jib sheet over my leg so it is within easy reach.

I've been over far enough to put the rail under and fill the cockpit full of water. I keep the main sheet in my hand. Although I have capsized the boat also. Just Don't let your cousin go to the low side when heavily heeled.

John

From what I'm learning she really wants to flat sail. And from what I saw of her, she moved pretty well flat (well 5 degree give or take).
What I didn't realize and learned later, was the centerboard had lifted from the speed.
Since I was running Broad (?) 90 degrees to the wind, I've been told this is good to lift it.
Just wasn't good for the tack.

This was a good learning curve of understanding this craft.
And one more item for my Jib person to look at (and me as well).

This boat is a new challenge and I'm still feelin' her out..
Feel like I'm on the first date and just not sure what she likes yet..

She's an "older gal", and she's "tadpolling". She'll let you know exactly what she likes if and when, and only if and when, she decides to. Until then, you'll lie panting at her feet, begging for more ... ;-P

Bump to Chris on Jib sheet on the knees. Blowing the main is easy but the jib will dig you in quick risking tipping the loose boom in the water, which slows the boat and over you go. Usually when I get "close" it's due to difficulty loosing the jib, not the main. Make sure your jib person, or you, blows the jib if water is coming in the boat..... She will round up quick so keep control of the rudder.

If you put ratchet blocks on your jib cars then you can hold the jib sheet in your hand instead of cleating it. Or your crew can. Inexperienced crew likely will let go of jib in any 'scary' situation, but reaching for and uncleating are deliberate actions that are not as easily mastered when one feels surprised by the boat leaning over.

All things being equal I prefer cleat that are easy to uncleat even if they are a bit harder to cleat.

I've gone over. I didn't catch all the details at the time (adrenaline), so I cannot weigh in on what the point of no return was. But the advice above is good.

I'm not against the broach. It greatly accelerates the learning curve, once you get back on land and think about what happened. One of the best resources I found was this:

http://www.hamptononedesign.com/the-boa ... t-handling

We used to put the rails in the water from time to time. But in the debriefing from our broach we figured out that a severe heel isn't just exciting; it's poor handling. The boat is faster and easier to maneuver when it is flatter, so now I consider rails in the water to be a mistake.

In my case, the broach was from a 1) roundup, which 2) backwinded the jib, and 3) left the moveable ballast (me) on the leeward side.

--john

Nice link.

Yes, the boat can sail up at 45 degrees of heel, but it would be a lot faster to reef the main and keep the rail down. Most people say 0-10 degrees of heel is optimal. With an eye on the GPS knot meter, I think up to 15 degrees is OK. When you pass that, the speed falls off dramatically. Ditto what people said about the jib. A stuck foresail will prevent the boat from rounding up. At extreme angles of heel, there isn't much rudder in the water any more, so the sail is really in control.