capsizing

[tony]

Hi group. I'm new to the forum and have recently purchased a 1968 daysailer. This past weekend I took her out on her maiden voyage. She handled very fine until the tiller broke off during a controlled jibe in 10-20 knots of wind and within seconds we were beam on and over she went. I dont have a problem with capsizing but it took 2 power boats and 4 hours to right her. I spent most of that time in the water swimming among lines and cables. I think the only reason it righted was because the mast had eventually broken off. I almost gave up on her. Apart from replacing the obvious, can anyone in this forum suggest/ recommend anything I can do to prevent my mast from sinking to the bottom. I know Capsizing is innevitable but is there a way i can minimise the boats resistance to righting itself?
Also, does anyone where I can get a new mast?
best,
Tony (jacksonville, /fl)
ps. I love this boat but i'm nervous to take my family out in it knowing I wouldnt be able to right her in I capsized her.

[shawn]

Tony,

Sorry to hear about your mishap. What a trouper though, this happens on your first trip and you still love the boat...a lesser person would've swam away disowning the craft. I've come close but never capsized so I can't be much help there (it is actually tough to capsize these, saving of course the untimely equipment failure). I have the DSII which doesn't nearly fill up with as much water as the DSI (at the sacrifice of some extra weight and lost stiffness). There are some threads here about adding flotation to this model to make it easier to self rescue. I would think to grab the halyard while standing on the centerboard as quickly as possible after capsizing to avoid going "turtle" would help. Dwyer makes masts for these boats and if you can salvage the hardware you can just get the bare extrusion. On their website (www.dwyermast.com) they show the different cross sections of the masts they make. You can contact them, I'm sure they could help you out. Mine is a Dwyer that is filled with foam to avoid it from sinking, maybe on the earlier boats that wasn't done.
Just a thought, because there is no backstay I try to tack whenever possible rather then jibe in high winds just to lessen the load. But that can't always be done especially when racing

Hang in there!
Shawn
DS10542

[jpclowes]

Hi Tony
I'm sorry you had a bad experience on your first time out. Don't feel bad, most people capsize sooner or later. Having your tiller break is an extenuating circumstance. Here are a couple of hints. First, always sail with the Main Sheet in your hand. I have to confess, I don't always follow this, but if it isn't in my hand, it is hanging accross my leg, in easy reach. Some people refuse to cleat the mainsheet altogether, and just hold it. (They often have a ratchet block they can turn to full resistance on the 'let out' side so they don't need their full strength to hold it in.) This way, if it gets overpowered you can let it out immediately.
I never gybe with the sail cleated in. I always just grab the mainsheet above halfway between the boom and the cleat, and pull it accross manually. I'll usually try to cushion the sail as it comes accross, and let it out as slowly as possible with my hand. Someone sailing my dad's J-22 (keelboat) managed to capsize it by cleating the mainsheet while gybing. If the sail is not cleated, if you are round up after a gybe the sail can go free and depower.
Practice gybing, and moving to the windward side of the boat at the same time as the boom--Preferably on light air days. Practice moving around the boat in general, even tied to the dock with the sails down, this will help you get a feel for how she reacts to weight distribution. I'll be honest, I'm a big guy, and when I first started sailing the boat, I sometimes had a hard time moving around. It helps to know how and where you can move for the least or most effect, depending on your situation.
Finally, if you do capsize, the first thing you should do is grab a spare life jacket, cushon, etc and swim as fast as you can for the end of the mast. It doesn't take much to keep the top of the mast from sinking, but once it is down it is hard to get back up!

[KaiB]

Good job staying with her; its frustrating when things break and the boat goes over.

Here's what I intend to do this winter...(despite all the language about how not to dump a boat, it will happen when you press it...and I understand the DS-1 is trouble when full of water - as you well know).

1) Clean and re-do all of the built in flotation; both seat tanks and the bow.

2) Add positive flotation above the seat tanks along the hull beneath the combings.

3) Add positive flotation beneath the transom "deck".

4) Add positive flotation beneath the cuddy top from the aft edge forward to some as yet unknown point. I don't know how far forward as I have not yet done the math - and have not yet dumped the boat.

5) Figure out a way to close off the bow storage using the original covers (gasket and clamps perhaps)

I do know that sailing on the ragged edge is not fast, but things happen; if we do dump the boat, I would like to be able to rescue and sail away.

Ideas, anyone?

Oh yeah...where did your tiller break?

[calden]

Wow, Tony - what an experience. I'm glad you're okay and didn't suffer from hypothermia. I put the rail in the water once (first sail, poor spouse was on leeward side about to move over, got wet) but feel pretty much in control with holding the mainsheet ready to loosen, and turning the boat into the wind.

But still - it can happen, and I, too, would like to know what have been considered successful upgrades to the floatation (to be able to re-sail the DSI after capsizing.) I've taken out the old styrofoam and crammed in new noodles, and threw a whole bunch up in the bow area too.

Has anyone actually had a successful capsize after doing this? What floatation upgrades have you done?

carlos

[tony]

Thanks for the replies. I'll follow up on the mast contact and intend to add flotation in the cuddy, transom,under the gunwails and invest in a float bob for the top of the mast.
The tiller broke across the fingers. The break looked unusual in the sense in was 90 deg to the grain with little fingering or splitting of the grain. Its like the wood fibre had crystalized in this region. I'll probably go to a laminate tiller. I'm impressed with this boat because it was blowing a 'daysailors gail' with spray coming over the bow. Even completed several jibes by pulling in the boom, jibing, then easing the boom back out. If the tiller hadnt of broken, i'm confident i would not have capsized her. I keep the main sheet in hand always and this goes along way to preventing a capsizing however, capsizings are innevitable and one must be prepared. I plan to run some controlled tests after my new mast arrives.
best,
tony

[Phill]

Just an additional thought.

My original Alspar, untapered full length mast, had been filled with styrofoam that had become water logged. That mast was very very top heavy. I am kind of embarrassed, but in my enthusiasm to get rid of the foam, (on recommendation of ??) I poured gasoline, (much cheaper then) in to the mast section from the top. Foam goo drained out the bottom end. The mast was much lighter and was very competitive until I crossed masts with 25 footer, on opposite tack reach. (dont ask why I was so close to that boat. those who know about my tradition willl figure it out) That mast won a PCC and a High Serria (at least as hard to win as a PCC, and placed top 10 in NACR twice.

Sorry to get off track. Your mast may have been like mine, and that would help explain the difficulty of your capsize recovery. I have capsized a few times and was always able to get the boat up with my 160 and my crews 120 or so. (does take both). With about 10 - 15 mins of bailing (5 gal bucket, the boat could have continued in those races. I did once 'volunteer' to help rescue a DS that had a leaks in the seat tanks and not enough foam. Rob Fiock (very experencied 220 pounder) and I could not get the boat to stay upright due to the extra water in the floatation tanks. We ended up towing it 2 miles on its side, Rob helping to keep the bow up, and me on the mast tip with extra boat cushions to keep the mast from submarineing. When we got to the YC beach we pulled it little by little up the beach and let it drain, so as not to stress the hull too much.

Hope this helps. Keep on enjoying your DS. They are great boats.

phill

[KaiB]

What Phill didn't mention is the fact that he has indeed modified his mast...

Its a tall Lollipop dispenser.

[tony]

thanks to all for the advise and thoughts. I like the idea of repacking the flotation seats and up under the cuddy as well. But, the most significant alteration will be the addition of the mast head flotation. Have any of you put a 'baby bob' on top of the mast? Can they be adapted to fit our boat.?
According to my calculation, for the mast head to float, about 12-15# displacement is neccessary.
Second question. Would you recommend i stick with the original ash wood tiller or go with a laminate?

thanks again

tony

[Phill]

quote fm KiaB....
What Phill didn't mention is the fact that he has indeed modified his mast...

Its a tall Lollipop dispenser.

shhhhhh you let out my secret

[KaiB]

Tony,

Why don't you have Carlos craft you a carbon tiller....

Nah - Actually, If you still have the original floorboards, combing and the rest, it would be neat to have an original ash tiller. How important is all of that to you.

If not, you could have a lot of fun laying up one of your own.

I just can't imagine that you'd ever see one break again in the way that yours just did.

Kai

[tony]

KaiB,
I think the tiller that broke off on me was made of ash. I'm going to laminate a new one with a slightly modified throat connection each side of the rudder. Judging from the location of the break, the weak point is where the fingers on each side of the rudder joins the wide part of the tiller. I plan to splice a brass plate between the laminates With concealed screws to strengthen this area..
Carlos, what do ya think.

best,
tony

[calden]

I think that's a great idea, but I've never heard of a tiller breaking before. I would think it's a unique problem that shouldn't affect a "normal" tiller.

Carlos

[Imgaryo1]

Tony,
The biggest question in my mind when thinking about the effort it took to right your DS is did you uncleat the sails. If you did not, not only were you trying to right the boat but add the weight of the water held by the sails and a very long moment arm and one can easily see why it took two power boats and four hours. This would also explain why the mast broke. The very first step after a capsize is to uncleat everything so as the boat starts to come up, the sails will swing away from the boat and let the water simply drain off the sails. You should be able to right the boat within just a few minutes. Once up, bailing may take some time. Installing a flotatiion bag at the transom is also a great idea. Make sure you strap it to the hull. Lower the better. This will lift the transom and the volume taken up by the bag is that much less volume of water you have to bail out.

As long as you are looking for a replacement mast, buy a Proctor tapered mast. They are very light and used by all of the top sailors in the DS class.

[adam aunins]

I know a DS is a little big for this but when I took my first sailing class it was in a sunfish and the secound thing we did after a swim test was to tip the boat over and then right it.

Of coarse I've also put the upper spar on my sunfish in a lake bottom before (not turtled. I was dumfounded as to why a 226lb person on the dagger board couldn't right a sunfish) so I have a hard time with the Idea of turning my DS over just to learn.