20:1 vang

Moderator: GreenLake

20:1 vang

Postby Salty Dog » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:56 pm

I could not figure out why a person would need a 20:1 anything on a small boat. I had only used my Vang for running , but now that I have heard more talk and watched the video on the interlake, I think I will rig me up a better vang and learn to use it. I had tried to avoid putting any holes in my cuddy top but I think I will, so I can cleat the vang in a place I can get to it. I will study the pics and buy me somy parts.

SD
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby TIM WEBB » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:06 pm

SD, why would you need to put holes in your cuddy roof to accommodate a vang? There are plenty of options that allow easy adjustment right on the vang itself ... ?
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby Salty Dog » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:14 pm

Tim

I had a small fiddle block that I used for a vang when I was running, and a cunningham when I was close hauled that was 1/4" line with a jam cleat built in. It worked ok but you could not flip or pop it out from a position other than right at it.
It worked ok. Now that I have been working on hiking out, It would be harder to operate with out running the lines rearward and cleating them somewhere I can reach them. I had a larger fiddle block with a cam cleat on it and tried to rig it as a vang but the angle of the cleat put the line coming off straight down and you had to pull straight down to cleat it. if it was put cleat to boom or if put cleat to deck the hight of the cuddy would not let me cleat it or pup it out.

I was looking at KCs pics and he had a 20:1 with the end ran through the top and cleated some where back assuming on the centerboard trunk I cant see where in the pic. So I thought that would be the answer.

I'm sure that there are other options and that is partly why I posted this, hoping for some input from experts.

I have a larger boat and I use a vang on it but I feel that it must be more versital on the DS. Plus I never hike out on my larger ballast boat, and I can always get to it and adjust with out upsetting the balance of the boat.

I also do not know if the vang is more useful with end of boom sheeting or mid boom sheeting. My boat has mid boom sheeting I may not need it as much or need it more. I guess I'll have to build it to see what's in it.............. Seems familiar like "pass it to see what's in it" Where have I heard that before?? hummmm

SD
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:59 am

If you are using a vang for "vang sheeting" then you do want to be able to play it. (Paraphrasing a statement from K.C. from another vang-related thread here).

In that case it would seem indeed to make good sense to lead your vang control back to where you can reach it.
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby Mike Gillum » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:47 pm

We've only capsized a DS once and that was prior to installing the original 15:1 Boomvang on DS #2772 BUBBA.
The original 3:1 or 4:1 boomvang cleated on top of the Cuddy Cabin and a large gust of wind with the Spinnaker flying at Lake Yosemite caused Mardi and I to capsize and eventually be towed back to the launch ramp.
We haven't capsized since with subsequent 15:1 and now 20:1 Boomvangs led aft to a 360 Cleat on the port side of the centerboard just forward of the Mainsheet Cleat.
Significantly safer and easier to sail or race your DS if the Boomvang is within easy reach in marginal conditions!
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby TIM WEBB » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:26 pm

Mike, for a single-hander who neither "seriously" races *or* flies a spinnaker, do you feel the same requirements apply?

Like Salty Dog, I'm also interested in your take on mid-boom vs. endboom sheeting as it relates to vang controls ... ?

Thanks, and congrats on the hard-fought win!
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby Mike Gillum » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:47 pm

The 1/4" polyester control line for my 20:1 Boomvang is RED, the Harken plastic Eyestrap atop the 360 Cleat is RED and written on top of my centerboard trunk with an arrow pointing to the 360 Cleat is "PANIC BUTTON".
That's how important I believe an easily accessible and easily adjusted boomvang in on a DS whether I'm racing or just sailing around.
If you're daysailing a DSII or DSIII then the stock Mid-boom at the back of the centerboard trunk is fine but a DSI with Mid-Boom and Traveler across the boat just makes life complicated!
Snipe style Split Tail Bridle reduces the amount of line in the boat and makes adjustment of the Main quicker and easier.
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby TIM WEBB » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:41 pm

OK, fair enough, but excuse my ignorance here: when you call your vang cleat a panic button, are you adding more vang or easing it in a big gust? And would that response be different if you were using mid-boom sheeting only? Your answer could (probably will!) change everything I've ever been taught about the purpose of the vang in the first place! :shock:
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby Mike Gillum » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:57 pm

Having sailed and raced most all of my life when bad things happen on a sailboat its usually related to the boom hitting the water and easing and/or releasing the "Panic Button" will save your bacon most of the time!
The boomvang controls/regulates the horizontal height of your boom from 5-50 knots which for performance and safety reasons is paramount whether you're racing, cruising or just sailing around.
The boomvang like the mainsheet, halyard, outhaul and the cunningham is another tool to be used to get the maximum performance out of your DS on all points of sail.
Mid-boom sheeting only has very little control over boom height or main leech twist unless you're going upwind in light conditions. Past that your Main and boom are going wherever they want rather you controling them and thats not a good situation in the rest of the conditions and the other points of sail.
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby Salty Dog » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:50 pm

I'll have to put one on and practice to know what I need to do with the boom vang. and how it effects the main at all points of sail. I keep learning more about the DS every day.
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby TIM WEBB » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:25 pm

You hit on something there Mike: I do a LOT of sailing in light upwind conditions, or running dead-downwind. I KNOW I need to work on my reaching, just don't get a lot of opportunities for that on the lake/conditions I usually get to sail on. Need to fix that. Also need to figure out if end-boom sheeting is even possible on The Red Witch.

But, even since I've added the vang to the boat, I've never even had the boom come close to hitting the water, and I've never capsized ANY sailboat. 'Course, I've never won a NACR either! Maybe I'm just not trying hard enough ... :D

Another very general ? for you or whoever wants to chime in here: the Cunningham. I get what it is, and my main has the cringle for it, and my mast has a cleat for it, but what is it for and when are you supposed to use it? I just crank up the main halyard and get it's luff as tight as possible, then "set it and fugeddit". What exactly does the Cunningham do for ya?

Thanks for taking the time to impart your knowledge here Mike!
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:34 pm

Cunningham. Try it next time and see whether it pulls out some wrinkles. If not, those aren't the conditions for using it.

PS: I get you on the limitations on the point of sail. I swear there are some points of sail that just don't ever happen around here. Reaching with noticeable wind is one of them (other than very broad).
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby curifin » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:32 am

Okay, my sailing education continues - this forum is quite simply awesome.

Grand Lake OK in 10-15 kts - gusting to low 20s (Thursday Oct 3rd, 2013). Was sailing solo with double reefed main alone and using the jib on and off (until I trashed the snap shackle on a tack :0).

Very educational.... I think I need a bigger vang. I still have the midboom - no traveler - cleating mainsheet setup, but with a 3/1 vang. I have avoided installing the traveler or going to a bridal across the back because I like the open space the mid boom provides and I go family sailing on occasion.

So, looking all over the forum, the vang appears to be the "swiss army knife" piece of gear for the DS1.

1. Crank it down to flatten sail and prevent boom lift. This helps pointing and power heading into the wind.
2. Leave it cranked down when off wind to reduce sail twist and keep the top 1/3rd pulling BUT get off of it QUICK if you get overpowered and start healing despite your mega hiking efforts (this should allow the top 1/3 to twist - spilling wind - depowering).
3. When you bury the rail and dump sail, LOOSE the Vang to allow the boom tip to rise before it hits the water or you go for a swim.
4. In light wind, going towards DDW, slack it up with everything else to get a full sail shape.(not as sure about this one).

Is this a good basic summary for my laminated in boat "instruction card?"

Also, I finally rigged my spinnaker up :-) can't wait for a <5 kt day to try it out.
1970 DS1 "Denial"
1993 Beneteau First 210 "Dory"
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby GreenLake » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:58 pm

Good summary, but forget the laminated card - these are all things that must happen instantly.

Note, the bridle in the back does not interfere with family sailing. I've had 6 adults in the boat one afternoon and none of them got tangled in the traveler bridle on the transom.

A vang (which I don't have yet, but probably should) might have made it trickier switch sides for someone sitting far forward. Believe it or not, even with 6 people we switched sides on each tack to keep some more weight on the windward side. 8)
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Re: 20:1 vang

Postby Mike Gillum » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:18 pm

Tim,
Missed your previous question regarding the Cunningham.
I rig my 4:1 Cunningham every time I race but very rarely use it other than to pull some of the diagonal "Speed Wrinkles" created by the 20:1 Boomvang down the mast.
The past couple of years Dieball Sailing & North Sails Mains have included a Tack Slug on their Mains that allows the Main tack to freely float vertically and hoisting your Main as high as possible to the white/black band at the top the mast using the Main Halyard is very important.
The Main as I see it;
1. Full hoist on the main halyard.
2. Outhaul tight enough to create a wrinkle in the foot of the Main above the foot rope in all but choppy conditions and then only ease 1-2".
3. 20:1 Boomvang constantly adjusted to hold the top batten parallel to boom in all but choppy conditions and then only eased to keep boat moving and the top batten tell-tail flowing aft.
4. Mainsheet pulled just tight enough to center boom using the bridle in all but choppy conditions and then only eased to keep boat moving and the top batten tell-tail flowing aft. In the chop we experienced at the 2013 DS NACR's in Annapolis I made the effort to look at the leeward part of the Bridle upwind and allow it to have a couple of inches of slack ensuring I wasn't sheeting my Main too tight.
5. Skipper and crew have to hike to keep the boat flat while I play the mainsheet and 20:1 boomvang to keep the boat balanced and on it's "feet".
6. While this isn't part of the Main as the breeze increases we'll ease the barberhaulers for the Jib Sheets outboard from their customary 10" off centerline to 12-14" off centerline to flatten the entry of the Jib while opening the slot between the Main and Jib. Flatter entry on the Jib allows me to sail around chop and waves without stalling the Jib and the more open slot allows gusts to blow through rather than "damming-up" in front of the mast. Surprisingly the Jib is really what causes most capsizes upwind!
7. If after doing all of the above and we're still overpowered then we'll crank down the Cunningham! Past that its survival with skill and luck determining whether you're sailing or swimming!
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