centerboard question

[Guest]

it seems that the most inherent design flaw in DS boats are related to the centerboard. can't get it to go down, can't get it back up, doesn't stay down, etc. why didn't o'day design the boat with a steel centerboard? seems a heavier board would stay down better and aid stability and the capsize factor. seems like a no-brainer to me. i saw a post from a guy in japan recently and he said DS boats made there all have steel centerboards. i'd much rather have a steel board, as i don't race and don't plan to. my boat is a DS II, not really a racing version anyway. could i get a steel board cut and install it myself without risking damage to the boat from a heavier board?

chad (gilliscmnr19-at-juno.com)

[Guest]

Chad, O'Day did not install a steel CB for many reasons. 1) Uffa Fox designed the boat with a wooden or Fiberglass board, 2) steel boards are a pain in saltwater due to rust, it is difficult to keep paint on them. I would think even a freshwater boat would get a lot of rust on the board, 3) Class rules of the DS Association, O'Day had to build the boats to "Class Specs" or else they could not call the boat a Day Sailer. Yes, that sounds strange! However, due to the "one-design" status of the DS Class, O'Day really had no choice. 4) a Steel CB would require heavier gear to raise, also the original set-up with a lever-operated board really would not work for a metal CB. 5) Weight, O'Day wanted a lightweight boat that was easy to trailer.

Now, could you convert to a steel CB on your boat? Sure, it would involve shimming the trunk to accomodate the thinner steel board, changing the CB upline to a system more like on a Javelin or a CB Mariner, due to the added weight in the new CB. Would this be a good idea? That will have to be answered by you, if it were my boat....I'd stick with the fiberglass CB. Maybe a bit of work cleaning and adjusting the stock system will improve how it works. Remove the board, check for hollow spots, fill them. I modified the attachment point for the line that pulls the board down by filling the hole in for the line, then re-drilling it more towards the bottom of the board (based on when it is raised) and this gives a bit more leverage to pull the board down. I also replaced that part of the line with slightly smaller dia. line and waxed the part of the line that slides through the hole in the top of the CB trunk. I ground over the edges of the top of the CB, they had been jamming against the top of the trunk (square CB against rounded CB trunk top). I brushed a thin coat of graphite-filled epoxy on the inside of the pivot hole in the CB. I also cleaned all the old flaking antifoulant paint out of the CB trunk and applied 2 coats of fresh paint, the paint is not needed if you trailer, but if the boat ever was moored in the water...there may still be a build-up of paint and growth inside.

Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" (rjohnson24-at-juno.com)

[Roger]

In thinking about centerboard problems with this model and the numerous exchanges on these forums regarding the floating/jamming centerboard, I can't help but think that a possible solution would be getting rid of the down line and adding enough weight to the end of the cd to hold it down. Added tension to the upline (via a bungee) should keep it from jamming. Perhaps this is too simple of a fix.

I would certainly appreciate comments or hear from people who have made such changes.

Roger Conrad

I read elsewhere of thoughts of adding diving weights to determine the amount needed prior to making a more permanent change by drilling in holes and filling them with lead.

[Guest]

This is a bit of a late followup question, but we are also considering building a steel centerboard for our Daysailer II. We have capsized on Green Bay, where a sever chop comes up rapidly. It was not fun. Our boat does seem tender in a stiff breeze. A consideration would be just how heavy a centerboard would the pivot point tolerate? Of course the raising/lowering mechanism would need changing, too. Our boat was made in 1976.
Your informed opinions would be welcome.
Dan Rogers
Green Bay Wisconsin

Dan Rogers (dcrbrewer-at-cs.com)

[Roger]

I don't have an answer for you in terms of how heavy the cb should be. Something to consider however is that a light centerboard is not a single problem. There are another two related items to consider in addition to righting moment which is what you are attempting to achieve by increasing the weight of the cb. The other two are a changing center of balance on capsize and kick up ability.

For my purposes, (which would be to solve the floating cb problem), I would think that I may add enough weight in the hollows of the cb to keep it down without the downhaul being cleated. This could be achieved with lead pellets and epoxy resin poured into the lower end of the cb. This would still allow it to kick up if it hit an underwater obstruction or lake bottom as you approached shore, without snapping the downhaul line as I did last summer! The downside of such a passive system is that if and when you do capsize, there is nothing stopping the cb from swinging back into the cb trunk, which changes the center of balance and actually increases the chance of turtleing. On sirens, this is a noted problem, overcome by retrofitting a small wooden shear pin through the cb trunk and cb to 'lock' the board down while sailing. The wooden pin is strong enough to hold the board down, but will break and allow the board to kick up if it hits an underwater obstruction. The cb on the sirens are significantly heavier than the cb on the ds, so floating is not an issue. Wooden pegs are cheap and easily replaced so spares could easily be carried. It is something to consider if you are thinking of a heavier board. Rod has also mentioned a tension release cleat that he has heard about for the downhaul, but in his last post on this subject had not yet seen one. Rod, do you have anything further to add to this discussion? I recall that you may have added resin to your cb hollows. How much did that increase your cb weight?

[Guest]

Bob Cardoza, a friend of Rudy Nickerson and and owner of a DS III is working on the idea of a stainless-steel replacement centerboard for the Day Sailer II and III. It will not be cheap, but may answer the idea of a metal centerboard.
That said, a ballasted centerboard is really not needed to prevent a Day Sailer from capsizing, it may even be a liability. It will take away from the resale value of the boat, you may not wish to race, but the next owner might and will not want a non-class-legal boat. If you ALWAYS sail with the mainsheet in hand, let the camcleat hold the tension, you can release the sheet and spill the wind before going over. I find it rather stranges that most of the stories that I read about Day Sailers capsizing involve boats with at least two people aboard, I sail single-handed 95% of the time on windy Buzzards Bay in Massachusetts, yet have yet to go over. Many other owners singlehand their Day Sailers without capsizing, so it is not just me. The Lightning Class sailboat does have a steel centerboard, they still capsize! If you want to, you can capsize any boat.....but if you are careful and sail smartly you may very well sail an entire lifetime in canterboard boats and NEVER capsize. If the wind is puffy, sail with just the mainsail, get a tiller extension and sit on the sidedeck to get your weight outboard, you will be amazed how much more wind a Day Sailer II can take with the skipper sitting on the sidedeck instead of the cockpit seat, I sure was surprised when I tried it!

Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" (rjohnson24-at-juno.com)

[Guest]

1977 O'Day DaySailer II

I've sailed off and on for many years in different classes of daysailers in quite a variety of waters, and I have to agree that keeping the mainsheet--or both sheets if you're single-handing--in hand at all times is the very best advice you can hear and heed. However, I haven't seen mentioned the axiom I learned and practiced until it became automatic to do. No thought required.

That is, "Tiller to trouble." On the Annapolis area of the chesapeak Bay, we have two "puff" seasons, though some would say it lasts all year. Also, I would tend to call them "Blasts" of wind. You learn to keep an eye out for cat's paws.

Anyway, not only should you ease up on the sheets, especially the main, but you should also bring the head into the wind. Not a lot, but enough to right the boat. Once it's righted, fall off again and sheet in the main. If you do it right and quickly enough you will maintain control and lose very little way.

Still, it's nerve-wracking, especially when you're out alone or with inexperienced crew. Practice is what does it. Last fall during one outing when the weather built up to nasty quickly, I took on water over the lee rail twice, but I never went over!


Bob Rowe (rowerw-at-comcast.net)

[Guest]

Last Summer I was out on a windy day and did have a frightening experience. I took a LOT of water over the lee rail in a puff, like 20-30 gallons or more. I was sailing (as always) with mainsheet in hand and sitting on the windward rail, for a few seconds I truly thought that I was going over (embarassing since I'm rather vocal about my never having gone over!). I released the mainsheet from the cleat, turned into the wind a bit and yes, SUNBIRD recovered! I did have wet feet (and a damp, virtually submerged camera!) and a lot of water to bail out (self-bailer did exit some of the water), but except for a few grey hairs, I was alright. I motored back to my mooring......still shaking a bit, and managed to calm down. Anyway, I just wanted to echo that the idea of releasing the sheets and turning towards the wind does work and works very well! Incidently, had I gone over...my outboard would have gone under.....maybe the thought of dunking almost $1000 of outboard in saltwater was an additional motivation to not capsize?

Rod Johnson, "SUNBIRD" (rjohnson24-at-juno.com)

[Guest]

I still can't believe the class will not allow rigid travelers in the mid boom position. I don't race my Daysailor II because I am always on a J36 for races. Since I don't have to worry about class legalities I naturally added a travler. In a puff when you ease the sheet it allows the boom to rise and a pocket to form in the sail thus reducing the effectiveness of easing the boom. That and the jib still being trimed is why you need to head up. With a traveler you just ease the travler and the main will spill the excess air while remaining trimmed. The net result? Less heel and still being powered forward which keeps the centerboard working (that foil that helps keep you dry). Obviously if you are racing in class, this message will do you no good. But for you cruisers, go traveler!

CC

Collin Casey (gybe-it-at-houston.rr.com)

[Bob Hunkins]

Colin, where did you hear that the class does not allow mid boom travelers?
Rule 10.3 of the class rules states:
"The mainsheet may be led to a fitting attached to the centerboard
trunk. The use of any form or location of traveler is optional. All
sheet attachments shall be inboard of the rail, except that mainsheet
cleats on the boom are permissible. Neither the jib nor the spinnaker
shall be sheeted to the boom. "

I have a midboom traveller, as do others. it works well for me, others prefer the end boom, because they find they bark their shins less. (I had already scarred up my shins a few years back, so its less of an issue to me! )

Regarding centerboards: They can only be made of built up or molded fiberglass and resin material or wood covered by fiberglass and resin.

The reasoning being to preserve the one-design nature of the boat. The Day Sailer is not as strict as some other classes, so we must be careful not to exceed the already liberal envelope we have.

There is a maximum weight allowed for the centerboard, (25 lb). If you feel the need for a heavy board, that's the max. If the rest of your boat is light, then a heavier board may help you.

Other things to consider - Hiking out will help a lot with weather helm and heel. Invest in hiking straps, and a decent tiller extension.

[Guest]

Bob I am not sure where that info came from. I have been wrong before and will probably be wrong again. Maybe even before today is out. You are right about the shins. But the control is so much better than with the rope triangle system used for the rear.

CC

Collin Casey (gybe-it-at-houston.rr.com)

[Roger]

I have a three part boom vang so having the boom lift in a gust is not an issue. What advantage would I see in moving from a mid boom to centerboard sheeting system that I have now to a midboom to midship traveller system? I have tried to manually move the boom to windward of center with my current configuration and only succeeded in stalling the boat.
What would a traveller do differently?

[Guest]

In a gust, you would ease the travler, not raise it to winward. Even with a boom vang, it still will not hold the boom down upwind because it should not even be used upwind for several reasons. The other trim advantage to a travler is this in a slightly over simplified examples.

1. Super light air--traveler slightly below center line, not to much tension on the sheet.

2. Light air--traveler centered usually sometimes slightly windward toward the 5-8 knot range

3. Good air--traveler several inches above center line (note the idea is the get the boom to the center of the boat, not actually above center line

4. The heavier the air gets from there, the lower the traveler will go depending on breathing ballast on the rail ect ect.

The basic purpose of a traveler is to allow a perfect sail shape to be set in all conditions. As the wind pick ups you have to ease the main to stay flat (flat is fast), with out a traveler as you ease the sheet the boom will rise (trust me it will) and the top of the sail will start to twist off. For cruising this is okay. But for serious competitive racing, that is speed being lost at the top of the sail that could still be harnessed for forward motion. I may be retentivc when it comes to a tenth of knot here and there, but when you race on the level I do, a tenth of a know can sometimss mean a race. Just remember this. If two boats start out on a 100 mile race, and my competitor is going eight knots and I am going 8.1, I will beat him or her by 9 minutes. The last offshore race I did was 155 miles, we won second place by thirty two minutes, we lost first place by 1 minute 12 seconds.

Collin

Collin Casey (gybe-it-at-houston.rr.com)

[Roger]

Collin, thanks for the reply. I assumed that a traveller set higher than center (windward) would allow me to point higher to the wind. I undersand now, that this is not so, (and why my experiment failed). Instead the traveller controls sailshape, but I still don't understand what it does differently than the vang. Do they not both hold the boom perpendicular to the mast so that is does not lift and spill wind? (I seek understanding here, I'm not challenging your facts.) So the next question is, if I were to install a traveller, should the track go from seatback to seatback, or is seat front to seat front adequate?

You also stated that you would not engage the vang upwind. Short of a course on sailing, for what reasons would you not?

[Guest]

Sorry the last post got a little winded. A traveler helps a boat go to windward by creating (when used correctly) better sail shape and angle of attack. The sail will never be any more effecient then when the boom is directly over the center of the boat. In other words, if the boom is to windward of centerline, you are not being effecient. Because the main sheet pulls down with a focul point on the center line of the boat (assuming no travler) the boom will never be at center, always below. The hard you pull the sheet, the more down ward it pulls verses toward the center. By using a traveler you can (when it is advantagous) change where that pull is coming from (ei to windard of the center point) so that you can pull the boom to the center of the boat with out pulling down on it.

A boom vang is used to control twist in the top of the main. When on a down wind or reach, the boom has a tendancy to rise, causing the main to twist at the top. This causes the top of the main to depower. By using a vang, you can pull the boom down and flatten the top creating more power. The main sheet cannot be used to pull down because you want the boom out. When going upwind, the mainsheet is pulling (for the most part) down, effectivly doing the same job the vang does downwind.

So why is it that the vang is an ineffective tool to help spill air in gust? Try this experiment. Sail up wind and close hauled. Snug up the vain (don't muscle it.. see next paragraph for why). Now ease the main and head downwind or better yet on a tight reach. See how much play is in the vang now compared to before. Secondly, in a racing situation when you dump the main sheet to spill wind you lose power and speed. When "play" a travler you effectivly reduce power with out losing speed. Kind of like letting off the gas pedal. The sail keeps working, no serious loss of attachment of air, but does not produce quite as much power. Power that in the moment of that gust was power you couldn't use because the power was blowing you upside down. The last reason the vang is an ineffective tool upwind is because of the hassle of adjusting it. I think most boats are set up with the vang adjustment near the mast and boom, to adjust would take your crew off the rail when they are need there the most. My traveler, mainsheet, outhaul and downhaul can be adjusted from the rail.

Now you want to know about why you should not use muscle on a vang when going upwind. The upward force of the boom vang going upwind is greater than when going downwind. The vang attaches close to the mast end of the boom. The roach of the main lift up on the boom more than the luff. The net result, the boom works like a lever creating a very high load on the vang. I have seen and heard many examples of stress cracks in booms where the vang bail attaches. During an offshore race I was on an inexperienced sailor (who probably should not have been on board) tightened the vang with out the knowledge of anyone who knew better (amazing what people will do in the dark) In small squall (25 - 30 knots) the boom broke in have at the vang bail. The mast end of the boom came down hard and broke a leg. The clew end of the boom fluttered about hanging from the sail and mainsheet and hit me in the jaw and another in the chest.

Most people don't push a daysailor to the extremes or go out when it is blowing a stink. But good seamanship is a valuable tool and can be used on other boats. There is a great book I read on sail shape and how to change the shape. I think I loaned it to a friend. I will try to find out the name of it again. It is really dry reading but very informative. As much as I thought I knew about sails, this book taught me how to manipulate sails into more shapes than I ever though possible.

Collin

Collin Casey (gybe-it-at-houston.rr.com)