Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Moderator: GreenLake

Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby tomodda » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:40 am

Now I have to go measure what diameter my dyneema lines are on the boat. I have a few, could have sworn they were 1/4", 6mm. Right now, she's sitting under her cover and getting snowed on, poor thing. Your probably right, though, I'm misoverestimating my lines (with apologies to George Jr.).

Tom
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby GreenLake » Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:53 pm

You don't say which lines you are using Dyneema for. I use AmSteel for main and jib halyard (with a double-braided Polyester rope spliced in as a tail) and also to replace the wire on the trailer winch. I also have two soft shackles made from that material.

For the sheets I use rope that runs freely and is grippy at the same time, so bare Dyneema (such as AmSteel) is out. Some lines may have a Dyneema core; I believe that's the case for my reefline and outhaul which are also ridiculously thin compared to their strength.

With modern rope, all lines on your boat could look like twine and still be up to it. However, anything that you need to hold in your hand, or adjust frequently needs to be grippy and have enough diameter to hold onto. For the halyards, having a tail that cleats well, is also an advantage.

The halyard construction I used is discussed here, which is part of the thread in which I collect all the information of what rope I use on my boat (see "Rope for various lines").
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby tomodda » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:26 am

GL:

Your post on "Rope for various Lines" is a great reference to all of us here on this forum. I've certainly used your wisdom for a lot of my rigging decisions, thank you for sharing!

As for how I use dyneema, it's for limited applications. Uncovered or "raw," I'm mostly using it for lines that I don't have to touch and where I value it's high strength to diameter and weight ratio. For instance the upper cascade of my 20:1 vang, and the upper cascade of my 4:1 boom downhaul. On the extreme side, I use 1.3mm dyneema for my inverse jib downhaul - basically spiderweb. I don't need all that breaking strength, but I wanted to reduce windage as much as possible. My slab reefing lines are also dyneema for the same reason, although I spliced a cover onto them for the forward end, where I grip it. Like you, I also have dyneema-core (covered) halyards, and same for some shorter control lines that come under a lot of load. My jib halyard tensioner, the lower parts of my vang and boom downhaul, and my main outhaul.

Another point in favor of dyneema is that it's relatively easy to splice and usually single-braid. Brumel lock splices make for quick and easy eyes, mostly all we need for rigging dyneema.

Which brings us back to my proposed dyneema topping lift. You're right of course, 6mm is way overkill. I could use more of the 1.3mm spiderweb, it's cheaper too. Just need to think through how to get a cover on the first few feet of it.

And talk about thread drift, wasn't this topic about travellers? Hmm, dyneema mainsheet bridles, I wonder....
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:56 pm

FSE Robline (I believe) makes very thin rope that's Dyneema with a very tight cover. Really strong, but both grippy and spiderweb. It's what I use for my reefline. (And on an 15' boat, for a main halyard). That stuff would be great for a topping lift. Check the thread, but I think the name is "Dinghy Control".

The downside of that rope is that there's no way to splice it, but the typical applications work well with a bowline knot instead of an eye splice (and reduction in strength from the knot isn't an issue, certainly not for a topping lift).
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby Anstigmat » Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:34 pm

IMG_3488.jpg
IMG_3488.jpg (211.99 KiB) Viewed 7176 times


Ok, the 12:1 set up came from Harken...but sadly without instructions. Anyone care to guess at how this thing is supposed to be rigged? From the Harken site it looks like there are two sets of lines but the image is a little low res for me to figure it out from there.

https://www.harken.com/en/shop/dinghy-vang/
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby tomodda » Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:24 pm

Don't look at the photo of the kid on a Laser at the Harken site, it will just piss you off. Heck, it's not even MY vang problem, and I'm pissed off! Anyway, ignore the photo. Look at THIS instead:

https://www.harken.com/en/support/one-design-deck-layouts/laser/

The Blue line is the "working part" that goes thru the cleat, it's 4:1. It uses the double block. The Yellow line is a 3:1 cascade. It uses the single becket. Harken's vang kit includes the "Micro single for attaching the cunningham," in other words to pad their sales. Is why your shouldn't buy kits, but I digress.

Diagram below, literally on back of a napkin, and drawn on my lap. Sorry it's very sloppy :) The fuzzy line is the working part, the single line is the cascade. Yes, you're welcome to share it to r/sail reddit.

Here's how Harken things we should set up a Daysailer, FWIW:

https://www.harken.com/en/support/one-design-deck-layouts/day-sailer/

Cheers!

Tom

Harken Vang.jpg
Harken 12:1 Vang Setup
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby Anstigmat » Fri Feb 11, 2022 2:20 pm

What's going on with that main sheet? Is that sort of like the traveler I want to put together? Except it doesn't seem to have the 'travel' part...just a line that Ys off into two end points.

THANK you for that diagram. Do you have recommendations on the type of line I should use?
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby tomodda » Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:14 am

Line for your vang? Either Staset or Bzzline or Robline, something low stretch and not hard to handle (grip in your hand).

The traveler in the Harken DS diagram is a "split-tail bridle," discussed elsewhere on this forum.

My diagram won't work. I took another look at the lower unit of the Harken Vang kit, the angles on the two pulley wheels closest to the mast are too tight for my proposed setup. Do it the other way around, a 3:1 working part off the back pulley wheel, going to the single becket. Then have that on a 4:1 cascade on the double block, which is attached to the boom, with the line going around the top-front pulley on the lower unit, back to the double block, and tied off to the shackle at the top of the lower unit. I'll draw it up tomorrow, way late here tonight.

Embarrassed to say that what I describe as the correct setup is what's in that Harken promo photo. The red line is the 3:1 working part, the blue is the cascade. They also lead the outhaul line over a block on the top shackle (on the lower unit), so that really makes the photo confusing.

Tom
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby tomodda » Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:33 pm

Here we go. Let me know if any questions.

Sorry about the top caption being out of focus ( I was holding my notebook at an angle, I guess). It says that you can connect the double block to the boom eye strap with either a D-Shackle, or a Snap Shackle. I guess you could do a wire pennant as well, with one of those keyhole plates on the boom. Anyway, you want a way to easily detach the vang from the boom, as you have to do that every time you rig the boat. I use a snap shackle myself.

HarkenVang2.jpg
Corrected Vang
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby Anstigmat » Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:51 pm

Beautiful! Thank you so much. This makes perfect sense now. How do I know how far down the boom to put the attachment? Is it just a couple feet off the gooseneck or so or can I be more exacting?
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby tomodda » Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:40 am

Matt:

I'm going to give you a non-answer answer, I always HATE those... You're going to have to rig it up and see where to put the boom attachment, only way to know. Put the lower unit as far down the mast as possible, rig up the two pulleys (working and cascade) and then move it around and see. The exact angle is going to be dictated by the clearance between the two top pulley wheels on the lower unit. You have to pass the working end between the two, going to the lower pulley wheel, so too far forewards and it'll rub against the falls of the cascade, too far aft and it'll rub against the working pulley. Find the happy medium.

For what it's worth, my vang attachment is some 2.5-3 feet aft of the mast, but i have a different setup. Also, as a side note, I'm wondering if that whole Harken setup is strong enough for your DS? It's meant for a Laser. What's the MWL and MBL on the Harken rig? Somewhere in this forum we discussed Vang loads with GreenLake and came up with 800 pounds as a ballpark? I forget, but do double-check your working loads if you haven't already. Vang sheeting upwind puts on considerably more load than just using the Vang for keeping the boom down when running.

Tom
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby Anstigmat » Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:51 am

It's got a working load of 400lbs and a breaking load of 1000lbs. I'm not doing any racing though so I seriously doubt I'll be stressing this thing. I just want to sail slightly better in the varied conditions that we have here in Maine.
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby tomodda » Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:13 pm

I tend to overbuild. Send us a Pic once you get this rigged up, please.
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby Anstigmat » Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:35 pm

Of course! The snow melted this week so guess what! I can actually move my DS trailer around... Assuming we don't get dumped on the projects will begin soon...so much to do blah.
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Re: Purpose of the Traveler on a DS1?

Postby Anstigmat » Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:59 pm

I'm starting to rig up the vang! The weather has been so nice lately in Maine, almost sail worthy...

I'm looking at the attachment point to the mast options. I am thinking of a vertical mast eye riveted in place near the cuddy deck top, maybe a few inches above to give some clearance. The other option is a fwd eye that has a line wrapping around and meeting the vang block... Any reason why I shouldn't just go with the mast eye?

Something like this... https://www.boaterbits.ca/products/sail ... 0172763267

Still debating the traveler rig. Cons, it adds time and expense. Pros, it seems like a popular way to sail daysailers!
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