Old Yeller

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Re: Old Yeller

Postby TIM WEBB » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:23 pm

baggywrinkle wrote:Well, Rudy told me it is a DS1 CB Handle, apparently broken where they usually break, he said. Other than that he said it is probably OK since it already broke. I may replace the missing section with a stainless steel extension, with hardwood grip covering the stainless. Or just keep the block and tackle arrangement which runs aft so one can operate the CB without leaving their seat cushion.

Rudy too said he never saw a DS look like this. Now I want a closer look to see if someone added the white part as a one off, or if it looks more like a production job. Wasnt there a song years ago titled Mystery Ship ?

I told Rudy that he is a folk hero on web forums. I asked if I could call him Saint Rudy of Assonet. He got a kick out of that.

Oops, I looked up the mystery ship song, and it was titled Ride Captain Ride, by The Blues Image.

Whoa, the song's youtube page has a pic of Einstein in a small sailboat. I met an old timer who worked in the boatyard where Einstein kept a boat. He said Einstein was not the greatest sailor. Sailing was his favorite pastime, I read.

Thanks again for your help guys !

Blues Image - Ride Captain Ride

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUjlBStMIHc


*

"Saint Rudy of Assonet" - now that's a good one! ;-P

Will be interesting if you can find out for sure if the entire deck and cockpit are custom, but not sure how you'd tell?

I've also heard that Einstein was a much better mathematician than sailor ...
Tim Webb
1979 DS2 10099 The Red Witch
(I used to be Her "staff", in the way dogs have owners and cats have staff, but alas no longer ... <pout>)
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby baggywrinkle » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:18 pm

TIM WEBB wrote:"Saint Rudy of Assonet" - now that's a good one! ;-P

Will be interesting if you can find out for sure if the entire deck and cockpit are custom, but not sure how you'd tell?

I've also heard that Einstein was a much better mathematician than sailor ...




Well I dont know for sure how to tell either. I figure I'll just look at finish/joining quality wherever I can access interior places where the cockpit (white part) joins the parts that might have been original DS. I'm thinking that if it is a one time modification there will be signs of joining where the Cuddy top meets the white bulkhead. One might expect that if it was a production boat the hull would be one piece, while decks, cuddy, and cockpit etc would be another piece or two or four or more, sequentially joined to the hull and to each other. I'm assuming one time joining might look less tidy, but what do I know...

I dont even know if that is a reasonable set of assumptions to go on. It might be a coupla days anyway before I can get back to Mystery Ship with a flashlight. Maybe also bring a small mirror taped to one of those bendy sticks. I gotta come up with a name. Mystery Ship? Old Yeller?

Yeah, I thought "Saint Rudy of Assonet" had a ring to it, like other saint names. French origin, I thought maybe. But, WRONG!

.....Assonet....a word used by southern New England Algonquian, means "stone". The -et is a locative suffix: "at the place of the stone". The entire region was sold to the English in 1659 by the Wampanoags, ...Assonet is one of two villages in the town of Freetown, Massachusetts... An original part of the town, Assonet was settled in 1659... ..


I wonder how much the Wampanoags were paid for the place. I knew a Wampanoag named Slow Turtle. He was visiting Hilo, Hawaii, early 1980s, speaking on Wampanoag culture and philosophy. He was a fun guy. A heavy equipment operator with a great sense of humor from Boston area, where I also hail from. It was kinda like I knew him as we were the same age, from the same Boston culture.

He said that when settlers showed up from England, some New England tribes were by then 90% decimated by disease introduced by early fishermen from the Guernsey and Jersey Islands. The settlers simply took over the empty villages and fields after burying the previous inhabitants' remains where no one else could do so. (sorry, I didnt plan to go on and be so cheerful as that) Real history though. Never heard that in school.
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby talbot » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:47 am

Consider the possibility that this is not only a Japanese knockoff, but that a previous owner modified the boat.
As someone who has shamelessly modified a couple of DS II's, I say, take a deep breath, blink your eyes, and see what you have as a new framework on which you might be able to construct a really cool go-anywhere dinghy. The combination of DS I and DS II features (after deck, thrwarts, CB handle, cuddy bulkhead, and sealing hatch) characterize the current production DS's made by Cape Cod Shipbuilding. So don't worry about O'Day authenticity. Focus on getting Old Yeller on the water and into some great dinghy cruising.

--Talbot
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby baggywrinkle » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:47 am

talbot wrote:Consider the possibility that this is not only a Japanese knockoff, but that a previous owner modified the boat.
As someone who has shamelessly modified a couple of DS II's, I say, take a deep breath, blink your eyes, and see what you have as a new framework on which you might be able to construct a really cool go-anywhere dinghy. The combination of DS I and DS II features (after deck, thrwarts, CB handle, cuddy bulkhead, and sealing hatch) characterize the current production DS's made by Cape Cod Shipbuilding. So don't worry about O'Day authenticity. Focus on getting Old Yeller on the water and into some great dinghy cruising.

--Talbot



Thanks Talbot !

....after one's own heart. Authenticity focus actually being a short lived novelty, We are on the same page. I like it plenty just the way it is.

Although I may modify it into a a sailing outrigger....just kiddin.
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:34 pm

Totally agree with Talbot here.

The measurements are a few inches short of a DS (16' 9" and 6' 3" are the nominal dimensions) and I really can't think someone would go to the trouble of changing the hull-deck joint on any boat - it's just too much work. (Although if you added a rub-rail the dimensions would work out better).

I've looked around online to see whether I could come up with a photo for something that's a likely contender (the DS clones/competitors that I know about all have some features that do not match). However, I've not been successful. It would probably take something like a set of photos with fully controlled perspective (e.g. taken perpendicular to the three planes) to ascertain whether the hull possibly came out of a DS mold.

If DS rigging and other hardware (CB pin) fits this boat, all the more power to you; the sailing characteristics are going to be comparable as long as the sail and spar dimensions match, so much of what we discuss here will apply, whether your's is "genuine" or not.

It's definitely a boat and definitely something you'll have fun with on the water when you get her ready.
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby baggywrinkle » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:30 am

GreenLake wrote:Totally agree with Talbot here.

The measurements are a few inches short of a DS (16' 9" and 6' 3" are the nominal dimensions) and I really can't think someone would go to the trouble of changing the hull-deck joint on any boat - it's just too much work. (Although if you added a rub-rail the dimensions would work out better).

I've looked around online to see whether I could come up with a photo for something that's a likely contender (the DS clones/competitors that I know about all have some features that do not match). However, I've not been successful. It would probably take something like a set of photos with fully controlled perspective (e.g. taken perpendicular to the three planes) to ascertain whether the hull possibly came out of a DS mold.

If DS rigging and other hardware (CB pin) fits this boat, all the more power to you; the sailing characteristics are going to be comparable as long as the sail and spar dimensions match, so much of what we discuss here will apply, whether your's is "genuine" or not.

It's definitely a boat and definitely something you'll have fun with on the water when you get her ready.


Thanks Greenlake !

Well, I'm coming around to seeing it dont matter much at all if it is or isnt a genuine DS. Its a nice boat which is what I wanted anyway. It was a Thistle for sale on Craigslist that got me to the boatyard initially. It needed more work. Then the seller said take the DS instead, same price. I dont know if there are any other DaySailers around here. Probably are. Still wouldnt matter at all. It will be great fun sailing again. Its been a while.

I really appreciate you guys' support !!! Oh !....I got a lead on contacting previous owner. Stay tuned.
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby talbot » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:36 am

Congratulations on avoiding the Thistle. I crewed on one for a season. I would sail my DS across the lake from my marina to the yacht club that hosted the Thursday night races. The high point of each evening was getting back into the DS for the trip home.

OK, OK. The Thistle is a classic. Fast. Technical. Beautiful all-wood models that are a joy to behold. Great competitive racing community. But I would put them up against any dinghy I have sailed--Laser, Penguin, Comet, Puffer, Lido, El Toro, whatever--for sheer, constant, unadulterated discomfort. Crowded cockpit, neckbreaker boom, hard-edged gunwale.

I will say this: When you capsize, the boat is easy to right. I understand the DS is not. But then, in 25 years on the DS, I've never capsized, so what do I know?
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby baggywrinkle » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:09 pm

talbot wrote:Congratulations on avoiding the Thistle. I crewed on one for a season. I would sail my DS across the lake from my marina to the yacht club that hosted the Thursday night races. The high point of each evening was getting back into the DS for the trip home.

OK, OK. The Thistle is a classic. Fast. Technical. Beautiful all-wood models that are a joy to behold. Great competitive racing community. But I would put them up against any dinghy I have sailed--Laser, Penguin, Comet, Puffer, Lido, El Toro, whatever--for sheer, constant, unadulterated discomfort. Crowded cockpit, neckbreaker boom, hard-edged gunwale.

I will say this: When you capsize, the boat is easy to right. I understand the DS is not. But then, in 25 years on the DS, I've never capsized, so what do I know?



Wow, you've sailed a few dinghies. I had a Comet, #389. Early sixties. I was about twelve. Squall capsized it (or was skill level involved?). That was outer Boston Harbor. I got it back upright. Coast Guard showed up while I was furiously bailing. They insisted on towing me to my mooring at home against my advice. If only they'd complied, it would've been way less embarrassing around the neighborhood that afternoon. Not to mention later when dad found out. I wound up joining the CG later on. Got to sail aboard Eagle. Memorable.

The Thistle definitely was a tempting classic. I'm glad the seller steered me to the DS. Less work. More comfy. Surely drier as well. Maybe. Well, hopefully.

I must say, for a young person as young as ten even, six years before car driving, to have charge of a 'vehicle' of that size, in busy shipping lanes interacting with large ships, requiring knowledge of rules of road, signals, and other seamanship skills, is remarkable for training and character building at that age, in my opinion, for which I feel fortunate and grateful.
Last edited by baggywrinkle on Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby baggywrinkle » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:31 am

Well, prior owner (before seller) returned my call. Seller is most helpful but does not know the modification history. I regret to report prior owner has no info on the modification. He did provide a tip on where the missing rudder might be found. Anyway, he said he would give my phone number to the guy that had it for some years before. Also he implied that guy was not the most cooperative back then. If this is were it ends my friends, so be it. No regret. Mystery Ship.
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:51 pm

If you look carefully, you should spot whether anything was a modification or factory original.

Original layup is done in a mold, with the gelcoat applied first which takes on the smooth surface of the mold. Laminate is then added for structure.

Modifications proceed inside out: laminate is applied, perhaps around some support and after sanding, some surface treatment applied, which may be paint or gelcoat (but painted on then sanded and polished, not applied to a mold).

Except with someone who is very skilled, I would expect any modification to leave traces where it joins the original deck or original hull. If all likely transitions are absolutely perfect and the surfaces look everywhere as if they came out of a mold, then what you are looking at is an original boat of some design different from a DS.

If you can spot transitions and imperfections that correspond to laminate applied "from the inside out", then you are looking a a boat that was customized.

Normally, hull and deck on a DS are glued/stapled together, and the corner is not a continuous laminate. If your boat shows the corners to be continuous, as if glass had been applied into the corner of a mold, then, again, my tentative conclusion would be that you somehow have a boat that is factory original of a design close to but different from a DS.

If the joint looks like it has been patched (fiberglass applied later to support the inside) then things might be a modification.

It's amazing what level of sleuthing you can apply to an old boat, and what you can discover if you pay attention to minor details, especially also in places that are normally a bit hidden... this can be fun. On my boat, I found a number of interesting patches that had been applied over the years.
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby baggywrinkle » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:21 pm

GreenLake wrote:If you look carefully, you should spot whether anything was a modification or factory original.

Original layup is done in a mold, with the gelcoat applied first which takes on the smooth surface of the mold. Laminate is then added for structure.

Modifications proceed inside out: laminate is applied, perhaps around some support and after sanding, some surface treatment applied, which may be paint or gelcoat (but painted on then sanded and polished, not applied to a mold).

Except with someone who is very skilled, I would expect any modification to leave traces where it joins the original deck or original hull. If all likely transitions are absolutely perfect and the surfaces look everywhere as if they came out of a mold, then what you are looking at is an original boat of some design different from a DS.

If you can spot transitions and imperfections that correspond to laminate applied "from the inside out", then you are looking a a boat that was customized.

Normally, hull and deck on a DS are glued/stapled together, and the corner is not a continuous laminate. If your boat shows the corners to be continuous, as if glass had been applied into the corner of a mold, then, again, my tentative conclusion would be that you somehow have a boat that is factory original of a design close to but different from a DS.

If the joint looks like it has been patched (fiberglass applied later to support the inside) then things might be a modification.

It's amazing what level of sleuthing you can apply to an old boat, and what you can discover if you pay attention to minor details, especially also in places that are normally a bit hidden... this can be fun. On my boat, I found a number of interesting patches that had been applied over the years.



Thanks Greenlake !!

Great explanation. Hopefully next week I will have some *free boat time* for that just such a closer examination. Upon that early first glance at the white parts dividing the cockpit, the surfaces looked so clean (molded) that I figured either it is molded, or that I am looking at a fussy first class modification. Meaning all inside corners look uniformly filleted without any wrinkles, with all surfaces sanded to perfection before finally gel coating. I've seen work done that fine by pro multihull builders, where achieving such finish quality is apparently as routine as tying your shoes, once you get the hang of it. I have dabbled with thickened epoxy fillets, building glassed plywood dinghies.

Here's a trick I just heard about....interior house painters will sometimes use Bondo instead of spackle because it can be faster. The aforementioned trick is that (sometimes) instead of sanding the hardened bondo smooth, a cloth or sponge or brush wet with acetone can do the final smoothing (or sculpting) while bondo is still soft. I wonder if a similar trick can be applied to thickened epoxy construction. Never tried it. Maybe with vinegar. I sure appreciated learning that vinegar cleans up epoxy, replacing nasty ole acetone for that use.

P. S.

Do you guys know about Off Center Harbor? Check it out. I am so glad I found it.
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby GreenLake » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:19 pm

Acetone will dissolve epoxy; some solvents (acetone?) can be used to delay curing until they evaporate. However, vinegar will neutralize the hardener and acts as a solvent for uncured epoxy. Get any vinegar on a partially cured job and you may be having problems. That's what I think I know about this stuff.
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby baggywrinkle » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:19 pm

GreenLake wrote:Acetone will dissolve epoxy; some solvents (acetone?) can be used to delay curing until they evaporate. However, vinegar will neutralize the hardener and acts as a solvent for uncured epoxy. Get any vinegar on a partially cured job and you may be having problems. That's what I think I know about this stuff.



Sounds like the epoxy surface could become gummy forever if 'smoothed' with vinegar. I will give it a test since I see some epoxy work in my future. Its great how vinegar cleans skin and tools.
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:29 pm

Did you know that your body produces acetone?
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Re: Old Yeller

Postby baggywrinkle » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:00 am

GreenLake wrote:Did you know that your body produces acetone?


Holy Mackerel ! I did not know that. Yikes !
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