original blocks? suggestions to replace?

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original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby SpeckledTrout » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:07 pm

2 questions for the group.

I'm planning to replace the blocks on my DSII (#5668) and wonder if these are the originals circa 1970 -- does anyone know? See photos attached.

Also, given that these are a bit worn out, don't respond well, I plan to upgrade them -- does anyone have recommended block upgrades they've done for the jib fairlead block and mainsheet block?
Thanks!

26162615
Regards,
Andrew
DSII #5668
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby SpeckledTrout » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:08 pm

the jib fairlead blocks are made of an interesting resin composite. I used to sail a 1970 Hinterhoeller and its winches and blocks were also made of this same material so I'm wondering if the blocks on my DSII are original
Regards,
Andrew
DSII #5668
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:53 am

The material is called "Tufnol". And what you have are definitely originals.

If you wanted to preserve them, it may be possible to "sharpen" the teeth a bit using a file. That process has it's natural limit.

Replacement cleats most likely differ in mounting hole spacing. Something to be aware of.

I've been using Harken cam cleats (you select them based on rope diameter). Ronstan makes comparable hardware, your choice. When I got my DS, the PO had already replaced the original blocks, but the replacement did not include a built-in fairlead. I find that I like that as I can grab the sheet anywhere, pull it tight, then worry about cleating it. (I have ratchet blocks on my jib track, so holding a jib sheet under tension is less of an issue). My setup is a bit less convenient when hiking out, but I don't get to do that as much; instead, I sail singlehanded or with novice crew where it's more important to be able to be able to also operate the sheets from other seating positions, something that I know is harder on boats that have the fairlead.

You will need to get support wedges that fit your choice of cleat. You won't be able to reuse the ones in your photo.

For the mainsheet swivel, D&R Marine sells something that looks functional http://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DR5010. For that, I'm still using the original part on my boat, even if that drives my crew to distraction. (Mine is a DS1, so I have and even more ancient swivel.
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby jalmeida51 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:32 am

I have a 1981 Daysailer 1 built by Rebel. It had your mainsheet swivel with fairlead for my jib sheets on my cabin roof. I needed to replace both of them, I believe the cam swivels were Harken. I replaced them with Ronstan RF67 Cam Swivels. For 5/16 line max. The mounting holes did Lineup. Good luck, John
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby SpeckledTrout » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:55 pm

Jalmedi, thanks for your note. I wasn't aware that some Daysailer models ran the jibsheet blocks atop the cabin. Mine run to blocks mounted on ~15" sliding cars to the inside cockpit (roughly under the stays).
Regards,
Andrew
DSII #5668
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby SpeckledTrout » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:01 pm

Greenlake, thanks for your note. To confirm, you don't use any fairleads on the jib cam cleats? Without seeing the configuration, my concern would be that you might have trouble seating the jib sheet into that cam if winds picked up quickly and you had to move react fast in the cockpit. However, if you always have a 2nd crew with you they could focus on seating the jib and managing it.

Much thanks.
Andrew
Regards,
Andrew
DSII #5668
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby tomodda » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:11 pm

Andrew:

Hello fellow Triangle sailor! My opinion, personally I wouldn't worry too much about any difficulties in cleating down your sheets (engaging them, seating them, whatever you want to call it). What's important is ease of RELEASING the sheets out of the cam cleats, as in before you capsize or have to round up. Which is why GL skips on the fairleads, one less thing to foul. Of course, it helps that he uses ratchet blocks, I copied his idea and love it. Likewise, tie the end of your jib sheets together. As for the jib sheet cams, you can always engage them using your feet, at least for "normal" double cams, dunno for your single-sided cam. Anyway, look at this post, GL is spot on (and apologies for my boosterism) :

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5831#p34619

If you insist on tufnol, you can get them from several vendors here in the US, they're made by Hye in Germany. Google tufnol cleats or phenolic cleats (tufnol is the UK brand name for phenolic resin/cotton laminate, "Micarta" in the US).

BTW, if you're not keeping the single-side cams, I'd love to buy or trade for them. I'm slowly rigging a spinnaker setup, these would be great for the sheet/guys. If you ARE keeping them, you can probably refurb them with a file as GL suggests and maybe new springs. Did you try simply tightening them?

Cheers and see you on Jordan Lake!

Tom
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby GreenLake » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:24 pm

SpeckledTrout wrote:Greenlake, thanks for your note. To confirm, you don't use any fairleads on the jib cam cleats? Without seeing the configuration, my concern would be that you might have trouble seating the jib sheet into that cam if winds picked up quickly and you had to move react fast in the cockpit. However, if you always have a 2nd crew with you they could focus on seating the jib and managing it.


Andrew. Using ratchet blocks, it's a cinch for crew to hold the jib at times that require quick reaction. When things have calmed down, we use an extra member called a "foot" to push down on the jib sheet while cleating it with the crew seated on the rail. Works well. (The ratchet blocks are Ronstan 55; they were rated with double the holding power than competing ones in some review that rigged up a test for that).

If you haven't, you should check older posts and look over people's pictures in the galleries. Here are two of mine.

18181034

And my original main sheet swivel. It's functional enough for me, but eventually will have to be replaced. I like to keep it around because it is a good reminder of the age of the boat.

1832

(click images to enlarge)
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby SpeckledTrout » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:15 pm

Tom, thanks for your note and suggestion. I'll plan to do similarly. I had a ratchet block on my Force 5 and it really helped to manage the load. I agree, with the addition of a ratchet block, the fairlead likely isn't critical. Prompt use of the foot helps : )

The open cams should be fine; I'll need to hunt for some angled spacers that fit under the cam.

Look forward to seeing you at Jordan. I rarely go there as Falls Lake is a few mi away (although it's not as large and winds not as consistently good as Jordan).
Regards,
Andrew
DSII #5668
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby SpeckledTrout » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:21 pm

Green Lake, thanks for your note and feedback; I appreciate the photos too as I like to see how others configure their boat. I see that you replaced the side brackets (the ones with the sliding car for the jib lead block) and used a comparable harken one. I'll do the same.

Thanks for the Ronstan recommendation, too. The 55 looks like a hefty block and it's quite a bit stronger (20:1) vs its step-down alternative the 40 (with a 14:1)

Love your original mainsheet block and good to see what it looks like (it resembles my jib blocks with the tufenal construction).

Much thanks for your response, I really appreciate it!
Regards,
Andrew
DSII #5668
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby SpeckledTrout » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:35 pm

Green Lake, when you installed the jib tracks did you also install backing plates? Looks like your DSI has teak trim so perhaps you were able to get behind that. I have a DSII and would need to install access ports in order to get behind the cockpit side.
Regards,
Andrew
DSII #5668
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby tomodda » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:32 pm

Andrew:

For what it's worth, I'm using Hobie Cat 16 jib tracks and cars and end-stoppers. From Ebay. Cost me maybe $25 total. Perfect size - 18 inches long - and the cars slide good enough for what we are using them for, especially with a bit of dry silicone lube spray. The track has 6 screws holding it to the bulkhead and another set of screws thru the end-stoppers. In my case (DS1) the two forward screws go thru to a space that I can reach, so I put a backing plate (some flat bar steel I had lying around). For the other 4 screw holes, that run into the closed side flotation tanks and cant be reached, I used Molly-Bolts! Yeah, I know I'm crazy, Molly-Bolts are galvanized and have round heads (interferes with the slide). What I did is unscrew the original bolt from the Molly "anchor" and used a flat-head (countersink) bolt with the same diameter, approximate length, and thread as the original bolt. I drilled a pilot hole into the side tanks for each anchor - carefully marked off beforehand by test-fitting the track - and hammered the anchors home into each pilot hole. For waterproofing, I shot some silicone caulk into each anchor and also covering the opening. Then I fit the track in place and screwed in my bolts, and the bolts pierce thru the silicon glop, although I help it along with a preliminary jab from a skinny kebab skewer.

So far, so good. I tested the whole rig by simply yanking on the ratchet block as hard as I could - no issues. I have not had the boat out in sustained heavy winds, so I've only experienced 20-knot gusts and the track didn't budge. We shall see what happens long term. I figure that in the event of "catastrophic failure" - the jib track ripping out - I can limp back to port with the jib block tied to my midships cleats. And then get myself Harken tracks and cars like a sane person....

Anyway, it's all disassembled now for my painting adventures. Will try and take pics when I reassemble it. And probably give each anchor a lick of paint for further corrosion-resistance. More stuff to fiddle with :)

Tom
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby GreenLake » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:32 am

The tracks on my DS1 line up with the carlins (pieces of wood that edge the cockpit opening and into which the coamings are screwed).

The carlins weren't in great shape, but not quite gone enough to try to replace them, so I perhaps optimistically gave them the SystemThree RotFix treatment: a bit of borax to halt any dry rot and penetrating epoxy applied via the screw holes. Followed by more epoxy into which I screwed the (waxed) wood screws. That at least made them functional again as backing.

My original jib track (factory original) broke during the maiden voyage under my ownership in quite moderate winds because the P.O, had taken tracks and coamings off to refinish the latter prior to sale. (I think that's the only thing he ever did on and with that boat, doesn't seem like he sailed it much). Anyway, removing and then replacing the screws must have worn out the holes in the carlins and one of the screws holding the track pulled out, with the result that the track snapped.

I've had the coamings off multiple times over the years, but reinforced, the screw holes have always provided a positive anchor.

Unlike a DSII there was therefore no need for me to worry about a backing plate, but on a DSII I know many people install access ports to be able to inspect existing backing plates and or adding new ones.

I would not consider "flat steel" a fitting material, because it will inevitably rust - and more so, if the boat is ever sailed in salt water. Stainless steel might work, as would epoxy sealed wood (make sure to seal any holes your drill) or strips of premanufactured fiberglass laminate, called something like G-10 (not sure about the name right now, but should be easy to search)
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby tomodda » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:52 am

>I would not consider "flat steel" a fitting material, because it will inevitably rust

Agreed, and I stand corrected. I used pieces of stainless steel that are flat. :) Actually, they were the spare mast tangs hammered flat, just the right size. Yeah, I would not use ordinary steel in marine environment and I hate rust streaks.

Bottom line, applying pressure at a single point (screw hole) in fiberglass is bad news. Gotta spread the load.
Last edited by tomodda on Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: original blocks? suggestions to replace?

Postby GreenLake » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:32 pm

SS mast tangs sound like a good option.
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