Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Moderator: GreenLake

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby tomodda » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:50 pm

Hi Rob:

You definitely have a non-standard mast rig.. and the PO did quite a bit of jury rigging when he converted to a tabernacle. Two questions and a suggestion:

-So, the gooseneck is fixed to the mast right at band #2? At least on my boat,it's free to move up and down. Strange.
-You say the boom is falling off the gooseneck? I see a rivet at the tack (near mast) end of the boom. What does that connect to? Can you just run a bolt across the boom thru the "base" of the gooseneck?

-Suggestion, based on some of your other photos in the "Halyard" discussion that you started, swap the position of the jib and main halyards.. halyard inboard to keep it as much inline with the mast slot as possible, jib outboard, so you minimize chafe against the side of the "custom" hole in the mast. And yeah, get regular horn cleats.

That's it, how was your sail today?

Tom
tomodda
 
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:04 am

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby RobH912 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:08 am

Tom & GL - thanks for the reply and thoughts.

Sorry for delayed reply. Wednesday the wind was much too light and would have resulted in just drifting around, so we waited to sail on Thursday. Nicer winds 10-12 w/ gusts to 15. Decided since what we were really trying to test was keeping the boom attached to the gooseneck and be prepared to make real time adjustments we sailed only the main sail. I'll cut to chase... gooseneck strayed attached (yeah !! :D ) and we had a lot fun with the "first sail" on a day with some wind. If we had had the jib up we would have been ripping along.

We used some cord to tie down the main sail tack, cranked the boom vang medium tight, raised the sail, and then additionally tightened the vang as tight as it would go. Someone had given me advice to also tighten up the outhaul as much as possible (to keep boom attached to gooseneck... not for optimum sail shape) and we found that we could not pull the foot of the sail completely out and you'll see that in the pictures below.

There is a thin yellow cord that is the outhaul line near the front of the boom. At the clew end of the boom there is a piece of rope (look like same size as the red main halyard in the pictures) and I am attaching the clew to that outhaul rope with a bowline knot. Some how / where in the boom there is a transition from skinny yellow cord to the rope, maybe to a block that is giving some mechanical advantage?? Something in the boom with this set up seems jammed or not working properly.

Tom yes there needs to be some work with the halyards, maybe switching spinnaker with jib halyard... but you can see that with the current set up the spinnaker halyard rubs up against boom vang and I am not sure that under tension (sail up) that the spinnaker halyard would not just pull out of the cam cleat. For your questions, gooseneck firmly attached to mast, it does not slide or move. Not sure which rivet on the boom you are asking about. There is a lot hardware, connectors on the boat that not sure what they would do... or if they are all from many POs upgrades and changes, but next PO left them behind.

Have no idea what the blue line is. There is a hole drilled up from the bottom of the boom and this blue line just hangs out... not able to push it up into the boom, nor pull it any tighter

GL there is a picture of the boom vang so with 3 on each side is that 6:1 ? Had a DS sailer at the club look at it and he thought it was odd that the cleating mechanism for the vang was on the bottom. Maybe just switch it around and put the cleating mechanism on the boom side rather than mastoid? Had two DS owners tell me that the boom is only held on by the outhaul, so it doesn't seem like they use it as a sail / boom control tool... set it tight and just forget about it ?? I'll ask them.

So lots of progress, and got a fun sail in. Boat handles very nicely, it was very responsive, and reminded me how much fun sailing can be.

Need to figure out why outhaul is not pulling out.

Lots of work to do, need to get a shake down sail in with jib, then try to figure out spinnaker rigging. There are blocks / cleats all around the boat and had a DS owner scratching their head some on where spinnaker sheet & guy would go.

Thanks!!
Attachments
Rigging Photo.jpg
Rigging Photo.jpg (190.54 KiB) Viewed 6076 times
IMG_3497.JPG
IMG_3497.JPG (79.04 KiB) Viewed 6076 times
IMG_3496.JPG
IMG_3496.JPG (75.1 KiB) Viewed 6076 times
Rob


DS1 #2444
Cape Cod
Eastham, MA
RobH912
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:33 pm

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby GreenLake » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:24 pm

[/quote]
RobH912 wrote: I'll cut to chase... gooseneck strayed attached (yeah !! :D ) and we had a lot fun with the "first sail" on a day with some wind. If we had had the jib up we would have been ripping along.

Glad to hear. Good call on the wind range for your testing. However, you might be surprised how well a DS sails even in lighter winds - not ripping, but can be making good progress. But then, we have a lot of lighter wind days here for me to practice.
RobH912 wrote:We used some cord to tie down the main sail tack, cranked the boom vang medium tight, raised the sail, and then additionally tightened the vang as tight as it would go. Someone had given me advice to also tighten up the outhaul as much as possible (to keep boom attached to gooseneck... not for optimum sail shape) and we found that we could not pull the foot of the sail completely out and you'll see that in the pictures below.


First, from your picture, it's clear that that bottom slug belongs in the mast track. I think if you let the outhaul all the way out, you might be able pull a bit of the foot of the sail out so it can reach the feeding gap. Or enough to take the boom out of the gooseneck, then put it back in.

Second, for the lashing I had imagined something thinner, so you can wrap it two or three times. Easier to snug it up that way. But yours seems to do the trick.

Third, you definitely want to be able to sail w/ the full range of adjustments for vang and outhaul; how far can you loosen them w/o losing the boom?

RobH912 wrote:There is a thin yellow cord that is the outhaul line near the front of the boom. At the clew end of the boom there is a piece of rope (look like same size as the red main halyard in the pictures) and I am attaching the clew to that outhaul rope with a bowline knot. Some how / where in the boom there is a transition from skinny yellow cord to the rope, maybe to a block that is giving some mechanical advantage?? Something in the boom with this set up seems jammed or not working properly.

Many boom-internal outhauls have a "floating" block to give a 2:1 advantage. It may reach the end of its range. Also, sometimes people tie bowlines that are so long as to limit the travel that way. I assume that your case isn't just the bowline getting stuck to the end of the boom. You might try pulling on the outhaul to see if it's perhaps too long (but make sure you don't loose either "cord" or "rope" into the boom...
RobH912 wrote:...there needs to be some work with the halyards, maybe switching spinnaker with jib halyard... but you can see that with the current set up the spinnaker halyard rubs up against boom vang and I am not sure that under tension (sail up) that the spinnaker halyard would not just pull out of the cam cleat. For your questions, gooseneck firmly attached to mast, it does not slide or move. Not sure which rivet on the boom you are asking about. There is a lot hardware, connectors on the boat that not sure what they would do... or if they are all from many POs upgrades and changes, but next PO left them behind.

In the picture, on the other side of your mast, there's another halyard that appears to have a block on deck acting as fairlead. Unfortunately your photo doesn't show the port side of the deck near the mast, so if there's no block there, you perhaps need to add one. The way the halyard leads to the cleat is totally bogus, even without the vang.

RobH912 wrote:Have no idea what the blue line is. There is a hole drilled up from the bottom of the boom and this blue line just hangs out... not able to push it up into the boom, nor pull it any tighter

Could have been for a reef line, but then it needs to exit near the outhaul on the end of the boom.
RobH912 wrote:... there is a picture of the boom vang so with 3 on each side is that 6:1 ? Had a DS sailer at the club look at it and he thought it was odd that the cleating mechanism for the vang was on the bottom. Maybe just switch it around and put the cleating mechanism on the boom side rather than mastoid? Had two DS owners tell me that the boom is only held on by the outhaul, so it doesn't seem like they use it as a sail / boom control tool... set it tight and just forget about it ?? I'll ask them.

On cleating a vang there are many opinions. If you want to lead the line aft you'll be able to release the vang from anywhere in the boat, but it may not be possible to cleat it again. Also, you get a 6:1 this way, but could get a 7:1 if you turned it around. But you'll have the line dangling into the cockpit. . .

RobH912 wrote:Lots of work to do, need to get a shake down sail in with jib, then try to figure out spinnaker rigging. There are blocks / cleats all around the boat and had a DS owner scratching their head some on where spinnaker sheet & guy would go.

You really need only two blocks, near the stern quarters. You can lead the sheets forward along the side decks to turning blocks w/ or w/out cleats near the crew position. That would make four blocks. Anything beyond that would seem to be extra. I tried to collect all I've learned so far on rigging spinnakers in this post. (Personally, I'm a bit of a minimalist who only grudgingly adds a new piece of hardware if there's no other way, but other people like a cleaner setup that keeps sheets out of the cockpit).
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7136
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby Signalcharlie » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:56 pm

Just curious, that setup is nothing like our DS II set up. Our boom has a slug on the gooseneck and it slides down into the sail track, has a downhaul and is adjustable up and down. The gooseneck fitting has a lock pin that captures the tack of the sail. Boom is plenty long enough for the sail's foot to be pulled all the way out with the outhaul. GL is there a big difference between the DS I and II?

Image
Kent and Skipper
1971 DS II #4624 "CYANE"
Small Boat Restoration blog http://smallboatrestoration.blogspot.com/p/o.html
Signalcharlie
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:27 pm

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby rkennedy » Sun Jun 11, 2023 9:09 pm

I just bought new north sails for my DS II.
Before I put the sails on I measured for the top of my mast to the top of the transom, it was 24',11.5", what is suggested in the north tunning guide,
Took the sails out of the bag and put them on the boat.

There is no grommet in the tack of the mainsail. There is a slug at the tack. With the mainsail pulled to the top the slug ends up 6 to 7 inches below the boom insert slot.
I used the grommet that was 6 or 7 inches above the boom to secure it to the boom.
But then I also had a issues with the outhaul, I had to pull it all the way to the end of the boom just to get it snug? The only adjustment I could maker would be to make it looser.

I sailed in my beer can race today but was really annoyed that I could not make any adjustments to the mainsail.

With the new mainsail on the boom is 6 inches lower that with the old Niel Pryde sails?

Has anyone else had this experience with North Sails?
rkennedy
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:20 am

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:43 am

First of all, let's make sure you have full hoist of your sail. Just to rule out that for some reason the new head doesn't get raised as high as for the old sails. (From your measurements, we already know that your mast is the correct length). I've had it happen with new sails that the way I connected the halyard prevented a full hoist because the location of the headboard grommet had shifted.

Next, the boom should sit at about 24'' above deck. Is that what you see? Or do you see 6" inches less? (For a total of 18") (If the latter, and you have full hoist to the top, something's wrong with your sail).

The missing grommet may be intentional. If the slug ends up close to the boom, it would be well placed to counteract the pull from the outhaul. Meaning, if you tighten the outhaul with the slug in the mast track, then the corner of the sail should not move backwards. If it does, something seems wrong.

Now, with a slug, you don't get the connection to the boom as you had noticed. However, with a DaySailer, there should be a boltrope in the foot of the main and that is required to be used under class rules. And by using the Cunningham (the grommet that is 6-7" above the boom) you can set the luff tension as needed to get the wrinkles out from next to the mast. With the Cunningham under any tension (even light tension) the tack no longer needs to be pulled down. So I imagine the sailmaker thought that it was redundant. You can always put one in, if it makes you happier.

The maximum distance the clew can be set from the mast under class rules is 10'. The foot of you sail should not reach that width unless the outhaul is tight. (The slug will have to be in the mast track below the boom gate). If your sail reaches the full width without any tension on the outhaul, and you confirm that it is 10', then something may be wrong with your sail.

I hope the helps answer your question.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7136
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby rkennedy » Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:04 am

>First of all, let's make sure you have full hoist of your sail. Just to rule out that for some reason the new head doesn't get raised as high as for the old sails. (From your measurements, we already know that your mast is the correct l>ength). I've had it happen with new sails that the way I connected the halyard prevented a full hoist because the location of the headboard grommet had shifted.
It was right at the top, but just to be sure I am going to put the main back on and take some pictures.

>Next, the boom should sit at about 24'' above deck. Is that what you see? Or do you see 6" inches less? (For a total of 18") (If the latter, and you have full hoist to the top, something's wrong with your sail).
The boom was head banging level. I did not pull the vang on because it was already to low.

>The missing grommet may be intentional. If the slug ends up close to the boom, it would be well placed to counteract the pull from the outhaul. Meaning, if you tighten the outhaul with the slug in the mast track, then the corner of the sail should not move >backwards. If it does, something seems wrong.
You are right GreenLake the missing Grommet is intentional. The rep from north sails got back to me. The tack slug relies on outhaul pressure to keep the sail and bolt rope from moving up and out of the slot.

>Now, with a slug, you don't get the connection to the boom as you had noticed. However, with a DaySailer, there should be a boltrope in the foot of the main and that is required to be used under class rules. And by using the Cunningham (the grommet that >is 6-7" above the boom) you can set the luff tension as needed to get the wrinkles out from next to the mast. With the Cunningham under any tension (even light tension) the tack no longer needs to be pulled down. So I imagine the sailmaker thought that it >was redundant. You can always put one in, if it makes you happier.

Right again GreenLake, I had tied the grommet off around the mast because I did not understand the function of the tack slug. I will reconnect the cunningham to the first grommet.

I have to fiigure out if I truly did have the main raised all the way to the top, I had my son walk back on the dock and look at it. He said that it looked like it was right at the top.
The other thing I need to look into is why the clew went all the way to the end of the boom, I could loosen the outhaul but I could not make it any tighter. Even if the pre-bend was wrong in the mast the bolt rope in the mast and the boom length should make that length the same

The maximum distance the clew can be set from the mast under class rules is 10'. The foot of you sail should not reach that width unless the outhaul is tight. (The slug will have to be in the mast track below the boom gate). If your sail reaches the full width without any tension on the outhaul, and you confirm that it is 10', then something may be wrong with your sail.

I hope the helps answer your question.[/quote]
rkennedy
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:20 am

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jun 12, 2023 6:52 pm

It was right at the top, but just to be sure I am going to put the main back on and take some pictures.

OK, pictures would settle this.

The boom was head banging level. I did not pull the vang on because it was already to low.

That's not a precise measurement :D , but it sounds like it was below the nominal 24". If the luff of your new sail is longer than 20' 6", that would be a problem, because under class rules the sail may only cover 20' 6" of the mast track. The vang normally pulls the boom level, when there's wind in the sail, and doesn't usually make it point down (or if so, just a bit).

You are right GreenLake the missing Grommet is intentional. The rep from north sails got back to me. The tack slug relies on outhaul pressure to keep the sail and bolt rope from moving up and out of the slot.


OK, because of the slug I had assumed this sail does not have a boltrope along the luff (mast side) but only in the foot (boom side), however it see it has both ropes, and only a solitary slug? Makes little difference for the rest of the discussion other than that bolt-ropes in the mast can hang up below full hoist in ways that an all slugs sail would be unlikely to.

Right again GreenLake, I had tied the grommet off around the mast because I did not understand the function of the tack slug. I will reconnect the cunningham to the first grommet.


Great.

I have to figure out if I truly did have the main raised all the way to the top, I had my son walk back on the dock and look at it. He said that it looked like it was right at the top.


OK, we are waiting on pictures for that. 6" of missing hoist should be easy to spot, but 2-3" may not be as apparent to anyone who isn't experienced.

The other thing I need to look into is why the clew went all the way to the end of the boom, I could loosen the outhaul but I could not make it any tighter. Even if the pre-bend was wrong in the mast the bolt rope in the mast and the boom length should make that length the same


You are right, there's nothing related to pre-bend here. You could lay your sail flat (perhaps with gentle pull from your helper) and measure from the inside of the slug to the end of the foot (that is to the aft edge of the sail, or leech, at the position of the clew). That distance should not be more than 10'. In fact, you would want that a bit less, so you can apply positive outhaul tension.

However, it's a used boat, so you need to confirm that the boom is still long enough to hoist a 10' wide sail (measured from the aft end of the mast). There should be 2-3" (at least) beyond the 10' mark, so there's room to fit the outhaul.

The DSA bylaws require racers to put a tape (band) at the level of the deck, another one at 24" above that (nominal level of the boom) and another one at 20' 6" above the second one. (And a fourth at 10" from the mast around the end of the boom). Electrical tape works well for that.

While you may not plan to race, these "bands" are easy to apply and would give you direct feedback as to whether your new sail fits inside the maximal allowed dimensions. Because there's no reason to go outside these dimensions (after all, the boat was designed to them) any sail that can't be hoisted within these bands, but marketed for the DS would be returnable as "not fit for purpose".

Also, by marking your mast and boom, you would be assured that they indeed are the original design length. If you find any inconsistencies there, it would mean that you would need to order custom sails as your boat would be non-conforming.

Please note that the NS tuning guide does not need to make reference to these bands, because they are part of the class rules and all their racing customers would of course have them applied as specified.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7136
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby rkennedy » Mon Jun 19, 2023 1:29 pm

I put the sail back on yesterday, (sorry forgot to take pictures) and showed the problem to another daysailer at the club.
After a minute of looking at it he said you know my boom doesn't go that low, it can't go that low because I have stoppers in the bolt rope slot that prevent the boom from going any lower.

So we released the down haul and lifted the boom about 6 inches, then I tied the boom off to the 1st grommet, lightly secured the down haul and everything looks correct.

I order a 1/2" sailstop from amazon. It should fit in the bolt rope slot of the mast. I will slide it in before I put the boom on and then lock it in when the sail looks good.


There is still not much adjustment in the outhaul, maybe another inch of two once the sail looks good. This may be that I have not raised the boom to the proper height?
But even with the current set up I should be fine for most of the conditions that I sail in.
rkennedy
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:20 am

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby GreenLake » Mon Jun 19, 2023 6:08 pm

I'm still a bit confused as to what you are doing. What is the position of your boom stop above the deck? (You say the new one will be 2" higher, but that doesn't tell me how high your boom will end up when you are done).

When I raise my main, the boom downhaul is off. (As is the vang). When the main is fully hoisted, the boom sits above the stopper by a few inches. I then pull the boom down and tie off the downhaul. That adds a bit of tension to the luff.

My stopper is at the regulation 24" above the deck, not lower.

I find that if I fix the boom first, I cannot fully hoist the main. (It's too hard to both lift the sail, and add tension). That's why I needed to switch to the sequence of operations as listed above.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7136
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby rkennedy » Tue Jun 20, 2023 5:04 pm

THe boom stop, is missing, (aka sail stop). The weight of the boom are pulling the sail past where is should have been.
Is your stopper a thumb wheel with a tube that gets inserted into the bolt rope slot?

THe older Niel Pryde sail that came with the boat had the grommet in the tack. With the sail fully hoisted this would set the boon hight by default.
With the tack slug on the new sail the weight of the boom can cause the sail to pivot so the clew end rises and the tack sinks. The goose neck binds a
little in this position and I had to tap up on the bottom of the boom by the tack to set it at the right height.

I talked with Rudy and the sail-stop insert did not come standard with the original mast. But he has them in stock.
rkennedy
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:20 am

Re: Goose Neck Question... from a newbie

Postby GreenLake » Wed Jun 21, 2023 3:13 am

I have a stop and a cleat. I think they are different parts, both fixed in the boom slots but tightened with normal screws, not thumb screws.

My sail keeps the boom above nominal height, and I need to pull it down to the stop with the downhaul.
~ green ~ lake ~ ~
GreenLake
 
Posts: 7136
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:54 am

Previous

Return to Rigging

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests