Tiler tamer installation

Moderator: GreenLake

Tiler tamer installation

Postby Tipster1 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:02 pm

I've been using improvised bungee cord tiller tamers for a while. They sort of work. I decided to treat myself to the real thing thanks to a gift from afar.

Installation instructions logically recommend a 45 degree angle between line and tiller amidship and offers a few suggestions as to where to attach line. If I wanted to use stern cleats, that would bring line pretty far forward on tiller and have lines running across aft cockpit. That could be an annoyance when motoring. The company suggests various cleats here and there - see link:

https://www.davisinstruments.com/produc ... rTamer.pdf

Before I start drilling holes, I thought I'd ask the group.

Where have others installed control line cleats?
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:48 pm

@tipster1: this seems to be a duplicate post. I suspect your intent was to move it here for a more general audience. I'll delete the other one for you.

I would probably opt for a permanent installation with dedicated cleats. I am curious as to why there have to be cleats on both ends? But I'm still in the bungee stage (and happy) so I wouldn't know whether reducing that to one eye and one cleat is even possible w/o loss of function or convenience.

However, one data point: my bungee is attached to the tip of the tiller. I've not found it an issue when motoring. In fact, I like the way it gently reminds me to not sit too far aft when soloing. I usually set my motor at a fixed position and use the rudder to steer, so I need to access it only when changing speed/raising or lowering.

Now, since I've upgraded to an the EP Carry, it's even less of an issue. That motor has a long control arm which also will raise/lower the motor with a single pull/push. I no longer have to move to the back of the boat to operate it.

That said, with the cleats, the lines of your TillerTamer will be easily removed should you need better access to the transom. I occasionally unclip my bungee for the same reason.

Once you are done and have used it for a bit, I'd be curious for a report of the pluses/minuses compared to your bungee setups (although much depends on the details there as well).
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby Tipster1 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:59 pm

Thanks Greenlake -

Reason for duplicate post was to see if any DSII owners had particular suggestions considering configuration of edge of cockpit and how it differs from DSI. More often than not, I am using tiller extension, so I'm not sure how the device would fit on end. And it certainly would get in the way of my hand if I weren't using the extension. If you look at link, Tiller Tamer inventor suggest a clam cleat and I am thinking of installing a couple on the inside of the transom So I can attach and remove quickly. I could also use some snaps and eyes, now that I think of it.

The EP carry looks interesting. Do you have the Carry or the EP1, that has a bit more power? Other question is how do you keep rudder away from prop? I am often is shallow water so rudder is partially up and I worry that I could chew it up if it htits a running motor.
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:54 pm

Mounting any hardware is a bit different for the DSII because you can't directly access the under-deck area to fit any backing plates. One thing you might look into is gluing a small "base" under your cleat. For example, a bit of aluminum, that you can then tap into. With epoxy, even a single square inch should have quite a bit of holding power, if you are meticulous about cleaning and prepping the glue joint. If you drill and tap the base once in place, your bolts would also engage (somewhat) with the fiberglass; combined it might be enough to hold the tiller tamer loads without requiring a true backing plate and the attendant need to drill and fit access holes.

My bungee tamer runs mostly below the tiller, therefore, even though it's attached just forward of the extension, it doesn't impact the use of the latter.

I have the EP Carry. I don't see an EP1 listed online (other than an model outboard for remote control motor boats). However, Joe tells me that the EP Carry can be programmed to deliver more power; the downside would be a reduced range. As it is, I rather like the convenience of getting a nominal hour out of the battery, over the fractional knot that I might get. Already, just trimming the boat by sitting forward gets me ~.2 knots additional speed.

Usually, I get something like 3.3 knots, which is fine for what I need.
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby jalmeida51 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:40 pm

I use a tiller clutch it is the same idea of the tiller tamer. Instead of a knob you have to screw to lock the control line the tiller clutch locks it with a lever like a rope clutch. It is rigged the same way the line runs down to 2 jam cleats at 45 degree angle. 1 cleat is mounted on the port side of the stern deck, the other is mounted on the starboard side. I mounted the body under the tiller 18 inches from the front end. It is mounted under the tiller due to my tiller extension. I called the manufacture about 45 degree. I was told the line should be at 45 due to it might slip out of the cleat if it wasn't also it would give the rudder full travel. I was concerned like you it might make a problem interfering with the operation of the outboard. The only problem was tilting the out board but as G.L. suggested I just loosen the line from the port cleat. John
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby Tipster1 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:40 am

Thank you both for your advice.

I had considered the tiller clutch http://www.wavefrontmarine.com/ Because it is either on or off I chose the Tiller tamer instead . It expect it to reproduce the function of my DIY initial bungee version which had enough friction to hold things steady, but no so much as to inhibit maneuvers. However, using stern cleats did restrict full range of motion and interfere with motor operation. In any case, since optimal geometry is attachment of line abeam of rudder pivot, I am imagining best attachment point somewhere on inside of transom. I considered something on the cockpit coaming or deck far aft, but that's another hole in the deck, something to trip on and make a hole in the winter boat cover. It's not going to be on much load, really. I would also have to consider motor mount location.

So - will the transom structure hold a pad eye to which I could clip the control line? (This is why I posted my original question on the DSII forum.)

(Off subject - I am amazed that the EP Carry works with a DS. The only time I use motor is when I tow dinghy from launch ramp to mooring at beginning and end of season. This can involve dealing with some wind and current. The E-motor Spirit 1.0 is the somewhat more powerful version of the EP Carry. https://www.epropulsion.com/spirit-1 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvujCnkMCKE
).
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby GreenLake » Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:43 pm

The tiller clutch is predicated on the idea that with a single grip you release the clutch as you move the tiller. That works well as long as you have your hand on the tiller. It would not work as well using a tiller extension or if sailing downwind solo with both hands gripping spinnaker sheets. (With my bungee "tamer" I just nudge the tiller and it resets to the new position - we'll have to learn from @tipster whether the tiller tamer can be set to the correct friction level to achieve the same).

I would be interested to learn whether anyone using either tiller clutch or tamer has sailed their boat upwind unattended. 90% of the time, I use my bungee "tamer" just to have a free hand for a short period (except soloing downwind under spinnaker). However, on cross-lake cruises, I have managed to set up sails and bungee to have the boat sail unattended upwind in moderate airs. I did observe that the boat, once balanced, would luff up a bit in a gust and fall off again in lulls, and that the bungee allowed the tiller to swing back and forth a little bit.

What I haven't done is observe whether these oscillations increased or decreased the oscillations in heading of the boat. Were they helpful or the opposite, or can the same be achieved as easily or perhaps more so with a system that doesn't have any give? Would love to learn of observations by anyone who's tried this. Perhaps we can also try to reason it out.

My thinking is that with the boat balanced w/ slight weather helm, that weather helm would tend to increase in a gust. W/ fixed tiller, the effect should be that the boat luffs up. W/ bungee tiller, increased pressure on the rudder would tend to make the tiller come inboard, which would increase the luff response. So, it looks like adding stretch into the tiller tamer has the effect of adding some positive feedback for gust response. Enough to make a difference?

(PS: off-topic on the motor: there are some discussions / reviews on the EP-Carry here on the forum. There are other, more powerful electric motors, like the Torqeedo, for example, which has been on the market for quite some time now. The EP Carry is rather minimalist, but I like its low weight and the convenience - I used a trolling motor before, which got me 85% of the speed, but was much heavier - not even counting the lead acid batteries - and took two hands to raise/lower. Also, the battery fits in the motor well making it a good fit for a DS1 of that vintage. The low weight means there's little penalty from carrying it on the transom.

The Spirit-1 consumes 1KW compared to 9Ax24V or 225W for the EP Carry. At full power, you'd need > 4x the battery capacity, but it claims it's comparable to a 3HP outboard. That's about all the outboard you'd need on the DS. The weight is about double that for an EP Carry, and the price compares at 2 1/2 times. But looks like a nice package if you want something that performs like a "real" outboard. Btw: the two companies share initials, but are unrelated.)
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby jalmeida51 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:30 pm

The tiller clutch can be released by moving the lever or pushing hard with the tiller to release it if the lever won't release it. I have never engaged the clutch when using the tiller extension. With the clutch I can release it with the same hand I have on the tiller. The other hand on the mainsheet. I only use the clutch for short periods of time, usually less than 5 minutes. To grab a drink, crank up the outboard, adjust the c/b.

It seems to hold a course better on a run or a reach. On a tack after balancing the boat and I move forward the boat falls off. I had a clutch on a Rhodes19 and it held a course better but the Rhodes was about 1100 lbs. Maybe the heavier the boat the clutch works better holding a course. It really doesn't matter to me I only use the cultch to get something done and I'm back on the tiller.

Neither one is a autopilot and should only be used for a short period of time. Nothing safer than one hand on the tiller the other hand on the mainsheet

John
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby Tipster1 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:11 pm

This is becoming an interesting discussion. My improvised tiller tamer was a line running from cleat to cleat through some tight bungees on the tiller. It had enough grip to hold things in 5-10 knots so I could have a free hand to make a phone call, eat a sandwich or heave to. If there were a slight puff boat would head up a little, slow down, ease off and resume course. It could do this almost indefinitely. If there were a strong puff, the weather helm would overwhelm the bungee friction and it became my turn to steer. It's in this situation that that I would fear that a locking system like the Tiller Clutch might get me in trouble. My system needed no adjustment for tacking or jibing. The only problem is bungee would come loose and then i'd be fixing it, under sail. alone or just sailing with both hands and a my foot some time. That's why I am exploring the more engineered approach.
I almost always use tiller extension since I am alone and I want to get forward.
I think this all this comes down to where and when you sail. I won't go out in light wind and if it's over 12knts, I am windsurfing.

Meanwhile, I still don't know enough about the structure of the transom to know if I can attach some pad-eyes with decent sheet metal screws or should I thru bolt them? There's definitely some meat to the transom since the motor is mounted there.

Is construction of DSII and III the same as far as transom is concerned?
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:25 pm

Just to make sure, my "bungee tamer" is a bungee run straight line across the boat underneath the tip of my tiller (not angled). It is held against the tiller with three wraps of thinner shock cord. These wraps are tight enough to hold the tiller in place, but allow the bungee to slip when the tiller is pushed into a new position. The system is engaged 100% of the time that I sail solo (and in light winds I tend to take my hand off the tiller and just nudge it occasionally - that method results in faster overall boat speed, I found, because there's a cost to making frequent tiller adjustments in very light conditions). It does not interfere with use of the tiller extension and, as described, it can be set to self-balance in some conditions, which is a lot of fun. All reasons why I'm happy with it, as it is, and I hope you'll be as happy with your new setup.

I think you might be fine with attaching eye-straps; in the unlikely even that they pull out, try the suggestion with a small "base plate" tapped for bolts and glued to the transom.

I'm not sure you'll get a definite answer re DSII vs. DS3, but you never know who reads along.
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby Tipster1 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:30 pm

GreenLake wrote:Just to make sure, my "bungee tamer" is a bungee run straight line across the boat underneath the tip of my tiller (not angled). It is held against the tiller with three wraps of thinner shock cord. These wraps are tight enough to hold the tiller in place, but allow the bungee to slip when the tiller is pushed into a new position. The system is engaged 100% of the time that I sail solo (and in light winds I tend to take my hand off the tiller and just nudge it occasionally - that method results in faster overall boat speed, I found, because there's a cost to making frequent tiller adjustments in very light conditions). It does not interfere with use of the tiller extension and, as described, it can be set to self-balance in some conditions, which is a lot of fun. All reasons why I'm happy with it, as it is, and I hope you'll be as happy with your new setup.

I think you might be fine with attaching eye-straps; in the unlikely even that they pull out, try the suggestion with a small "base plate" tapped for bolts and glued to the transom.

I'm not sure you'll get a definite answer re DSII vs. DS3, but you never know who reads along.


After fooling around some more you'll be amused to hear that I finally returned the TT, GreenLake. Gonna go with my old system which is bungee on the tiller and 6mm line across the boat, though I may add some eye straps or pad eyes near junction of seat and transom to improve geometry and figure out a way to control friction better. I might even add a loop to the bottom of the tiller to keep things stable.

If you have a way to post a picture of your set-up, I'd like to see it.

Comment on sailing with minimal intervention, especially with tiller is appreciated. We windsurfers have learned that to achieve max speed (20-30kts) hold still and move your mass around as little as possible in the gusts. Let the system find its way.
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:42 pm

@tipster1: I'll see whether I can't take a picture next time (it's not something I think about photographing when I'm out, but I'll try to remember).
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby GreenLake » Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:00 pm

As promised, here's a picture of my setup:

2752

After I took the picture, I realized the motor had rotated to where the control handle interferes slightly with the traveler; if rotated properly (propeller up) there's no interference.
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby Tipster1 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:05 am

Very nice! I was thinking of using some 3/8" yacht braid for line and figure eight-ing 1/4" bungee lash to tiller. Knot would be adequate. Tie wraps or even a few cleats would be even fancier.
How often do you have to replace cords?
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Re: Tiler tamer installation

Postby GreenLake » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:23 am

The setup you see has been in use for several years; long enough that exact memory has been lost to the mists of time. I have a dim recollection that at least the wrapping turns were replaced once. I originally just hooked the main bungee under the coamings. That wasn't very stable, but I didn't want to drill for an eye strap. I ended up using two fender washers into which I drilled two small holes. One to screw them into the back side of the coaming with a short/fat wood screw and the other one to hook the bungee into. You can't see that all that well in the picture, but about half the washer is exposed and the hook goes into that, not the coaming. The washers can be pushed up out of sight, but they are so unobtrusive (sitting behind the coamings) that I don't bother.
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