Turtling

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Turtling

Postby jjwlandon » Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:38 pm

Anyone know which float is best to use at masthead to prevent turtling? Appreciate any information.
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Re: Turtling

Postby GreenLake » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:56 pm

Welcome to the forum.

Various strategies exist, from the simple to the elaborate. Some people simply tie a plastic bottle to the mast tip. One of the people who swore by that method has had experience capsizing his boat. However, he's no longer around to verify that he's actually used this in earnest and sucessfully; that answer may be buried in some old post.

Other people sewed foam pads into the top of the mainsail. Downside of that solution is that if you sail with a reefed main, your flotation won't be at the mast tip.

If you dig around a bit, you may find some of the older discussions. Go to the "How to use this forum" section and you will find a post on the best ways to search.

Good luck.

PS: This question is not specific to the DaySailer II only, so I moved it to the appropriate subforum.
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Re: Turtling

Postby nacknakk » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:31 pm

The following URLs cover Capsize, Recovery, Turtling & masthead floatation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou3eYAd7JlA&frags=pl%2Cwn
This is a good overview that deals with a variety of situations including 2-handed turtle and capsize with spinnaker. The demo boat is an RS Bahia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vesaHU8JT8&frags=pl%2Cwn
This video illustrates a “dry capsize & recovery with a “scoop.” The demo boat is significant. It looks like an RS model with the RS supplied masthead float. I’ve experienced this float’s effectiveness as recently as a month ago. It’s particularly beneficial in shallow waters when capsizing can lead to jamming your mast in the mud, a situation that could require additional help.
http://www.rssailingstore.com/Catalogue/RS-Parts/Boat-Sales/RS-Quest/QUE18/RS-Quest-CAT16-RS-Venture-Masthead-Float-Kit-RSM-BP-909
This URL is for the RS Sailing Store’s entry for the Masthead Float Kit shown in the previous video. Though not an RS groupie (not a fan of rotomoulding) I’ve yet to see a masthead float that’s as well constructed and effective. It’s also size appropriate for a DaySailer and could be removed (not easily) for races. This kit is $236.35 and may be out of stock, you can request notification when it's back in stock.
https://www.cal-sailing.org/blogfrontpage/recent-blog-posts/entry/dry-capsize-on-a-quest
This is a blog from the Cal Sailing Club’s (CSC) head instructor. It addresses the considerations of dry capsizes. It should be noted that the demo boat is an RS Quest with RS Masthead Float. That makes it much easier to practice, which you must do and demonstrate your ability to recover before you can take a boat out at the CSC.
I’ve “plugged” masts as a worker for a boat builder and I’ve recovered from capsizes on boats with “plugs.” My advice is be very quick and if there are two (or more) of you, talk through the recovery procedure before sailing. The deeper the mast gets in the water the more difficult it will be to recover (of course).
Mast plugging is fairly easy. If there are spots that seem penetrable by water you can use a marine sealant to “leak-proof,” or; shape a rigid closed-cell foam piece to your spar shape, push it up into place and soft glue it, or; use top and bottom soft-glued plugs to enclose a space and fill with expanding foam. Probably don’t need something like this last one for a DS but it’s useful if you have a fitting that goes completely through such as a bolt holding a shroud fitting. In that case you should also use a tube to sleeve the bolt. We never plugged more than what would be in the water if you weren’t on your way to a turtle.
Though a happy DS1 owner and member of what in my opinion is a great YC (and home of fleet 128), I use the CSC to practice safety fundamentals. Two of note are the capsize test and picking up a MOB. Here’s yet another URL for the latter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=LvkNkrFhyp4
As a DS owner and member of the DSA, here are two things I’ve learned from CSC tests: 1) a DS, with greater freeboard, cockpit rails, etc. is nowhere near as easy to “recover.” I’ve never done a dry capsize or scoop in a DS but the CSC tests have made me think about what I would do. Last month’s CSC capsize was to windward in an RS Quest with 3 aboard. I ended up in the water under the sail. Occupant 1 was “dry,” 2 was “scooped.” I was 3, very wet (heavy) and it was difficult to bring me aboard. I fashioned a loop from the jib sheet that helped lever me aboard. However, 2) those amazing “racing” PFDs are not so handy when you are in the water and someone is trying to pull you aboard. When pulled on, they have a tendency to slip up until they stop at your armpits. Not so perfect. Put on your PFD, fasten it up and then grab the shoulder straps (or?) and see what I’m writing about.
Time for pool sessions or whatever?
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Re: Turtling

Postby GreenLake » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:53 pm

Done a pool session recently for Safety At Sea. With an inflatable PFD, because the object was safety training for offshore yachts. However, one thing that they recommend is leg straps for your PFD. I've retrofitted mine fixed flotation vest with a simple kit. Now my vest cannot be pulled over my head and if it rides up in the water, I can cinch down the leg straps.

P1040683-c1_600.jpg
SAS
P1040683-c1_600.jpg (40.69 KiB) Viewed 992 times


In the pool I used the pool edge to see how easy/hard it would be to get out of the water. As part of the exercise I was wearing a full set of foul weather gear plus boots. Except in winter, where I would be wearing a wet suit, this exceeds what I'd wear while daysailing on a DS. And regular clothes are not holding as much water (or allow it to drain out better).

Freeboard on a DS is not much different from what you find in many pools. The technique that worked was to pull up quickly, then submerge again and do a second pull with the added benefit of buoyancy (the popping up like a cork). This is something you can do to a crew you are assisting: dunk them in before pulling out.

Had a crew member who wanted a swim to cool off before the race. She decided to leave the PFD in the boat, as the object was to swim. She managed to get into the DS over the transom without assistance.
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Re: Turtling

Postby seabisquit » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:25 pm

I had same concern - and then looked at Bahia Vago mast head float (slim design) and the big ol giant Hobie teardrop. Both would have interfered with my mast mounted wind vane thingy - so we compromised, but haven't tried it out but in theory should work. Also things (not so much for the Bahia) will catch wind so would be happy about.

I have a small fender with a snap clip on a very short line attached - it is kept either cockpit or at edge off cuddy opening. and the theory is (and as I tell all my crew), if we go over - first thing is take that fender with a clip and swim over to mast head and clip the darn thing on the Mainsheet halyard line right above the sail head

(1) In theory should keep mast up and
(2) once you are righted/back up - just lower the mainsheet and unclip the darn thing off halyard line (again in theory it should work)

I don't want to test it - but it is similar concept to original daysailer suggestion of swimming over and putting a PFD under the mast - a very manual process

I've also been told to "just don't capsize", so I added a jiffy reef system and I can also try and forecast the winds correctly (with the help of technology) and stay off the water if it doesn't feel quite right.

Having fun on that little boat.

I'm sailing! I'm sailing! I sail! I'm a sailor! I sail!



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1978 O'Day Daysailer II - Sea Wing
2001 SeaArk Voyager Houseboat - Serenity NOW!
2001 Crownline LPX - The Dockside
1984 Illusion Mini 12 MK2 15 Foot Sailboat
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Re: Turtling

Postby GreenLake » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:10 am

@seabisquit: I notice that you list quite a fleet there!
Never having seen a DS capsize, I have no concept how fast a mast would go under water and out of reach.
The only time I came really close to capsizing was in a different boat doing some match-race type maneuvers, but quick tiller/sheet action and hiking straps saved the day in the end. Now, the cockpit was vertical enough that I understood how many people end up "dry" capsizing. The CB was just there behind me, and it seems entirely possible to me, in retrospect, that I might have managed to simply step on it. Would have been cool for a first time. . .
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Re: Turtling

Postby seabisquit » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:33 pm

To Greenlake - yes my wife calls me Commodore :) I love the water and breaking free from the shore, be it the beach, lake shore, river, or a ditch - problem is don't have time to make it a priority - as for capsize (going totally over - keel up) , I haven't either but I've seen other boats do it - mind you it was through binoculars becasue I wasn't going to be out in that wind :) I've had traumatic experiences in my boating pilgrimage, and adding a flipped sailboat with no help in sight is one I'd like to (and have thusfar) avoid. So at least have a plan I say. I'm still the biggest rookie on this board - Good luck to us all! adios
I bring nothing to the table.

1978 O'Day Daysailer II - Sea Wing
2001 SeaArk Voyager Houseboat - Serenity NOW!
2001 Crownline LPX - The Dockside
1984 Illusion Mini 12 MK2 15 Foot Sailboat
3 Kayaks, 1 Canoe and an inflatable dinghy :0
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Posts: 37
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 4:10 pm


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