A little confused about how much wind is really too much

[zeroready]

So here in Key West I am blessed to be able to sail most of the year. However in the winter the wind picks up a bit, the last couple of months the wind has been pretty consistently above 12 MPH.

Today was pretty typical


So we went out today and yesterday in these conditions and it really just felt like too much wind. I have a handheld anemometer and it pretty much matched what is shown there. I made the call to douse the sails and we just motored to the sandbar to get the kids in the water. Still a great day but it has me wondering how much is really too much for a DS2?

Today whitecaps were few and far between but they were visible at times. Seas were pretty low despite the wind. I would say the wind was pretty gusty and shifting. It just felt like too much for the boat to handle though and I wasn't comfortable with the sails up. We tried just the main without the jib and even that felt like we were overpowered.

I've been out in 5-8 MPH and honestly that feels perfect to me in the DS2. But I just don't understand how 3-4 more MPH can all of a sudden feel really stressful and make it feel like you're just on the edge of breaking something or capsizing.

So I guess my question is, is 11-13 MPH really just too much, or do I not have enough faith in the DS2? I'm fully aware how to depower in case of a sudden gust. I haven't dunked a rail yet but come close, usually by trying to just to see what it would take. Even on a run today, downwind with only the main up, no jib, it was kind of terrifying. Usually running is pretty relaxed compared to be close hauled, but it really felt like we were flying and could go over at any minute. Keep in mind I'm usually sailing with my wife at the jib (she's really good by the way and a very competent seaman) and two small kids in the boat, so I'm really not trying to take any risks. But both today and yesterday I just felt way overpowered and I'm just wondering if a gusty 12MPH wind is really too much or if I'm babying the boat.

[tomodda]

Assuming all of your boat's "systems," especially the chain plates and stays, are in good shape, you'll capsize long before you break anything. I realize that may not be reassuring, but that was your question - are you babying her? No, she's fine.

But sailing with wife and two kids on a gusty day does make one more cautious. Suggest going out for a few blustery sails with just you and your wife. You wrote that you know how to de power the sails, so use those techniques. Ease-Hike-Trim. Flatten the main with any available controls - Vang, Outhaul, Cunningham. Twist off both the main and the jib. Reef the sails if you can. Luff if you must. Don't worry about mast bend, it's supposed to do that. Downwind, don't ease off sheets all the way and don't go dead down wind. At least for me, DDW is a real b(ear) to control, even though the apparent wind is a bit less, I prefer to jibe downwind. Lastly, don't cleat off your, sheets, hold them in hand for quick reaction. Use ratcheting blocks.

As for why 3-4 knots extra wind makes such a difference, there are several reasons. From 10kts to 14kts is still a 40% increase, right? You definitely feel it! Depending on your angles and speed, there's apparent wind, not much for us on our DS'es, but it's also a factor. For what it's worth, apparent wind is how foiling boats, like the AC75's, manage to go much faster than the true wind speed. And remember that the wind power (force on your sails) increases with the cube of the wind speed. In other words: doubling the wind speed gives eight times the wind power.

A gusty wind just magnifies these factors of how you "feel" the wind. Suggestion - teach your kids and (maybe?) your wife how to read the wind on the water. The dark ruffles on the waves, more whitecaps, streaks of foam, all indicate oncoming puffs. And then ask them to call them out to you - "Puff coming in 5,4,3,2,1, Now!" You'll be ready, they'll be ready, and you can all react to it appropriately. Even getting everyone to shift their butts up onto the rail (side deck) helps a lot! Again, something to practice on calmer days and work your way up to really enjoying your gusty days.

Lastly, if you haven't upgraded to the 1/8" steel stays that D&R Marine offers, then plan to do so. Peace of mind. As I wrote at the beginning, the stays and the chainplates are the key to keeping your DS sailing. They hold the sails up. If you really want to test everything, capsize test the boat - pull her over in shallow water or on the beach using the jib halyard (not the main!). See how far she'll go before "the point on no return," you'll be surprised - it's around 60°. You shouldn't be sailing around at that angle, ever, but it's more peace of mind. These Daysailers will take a lot!

[Acornrunner]

I have not tried sailing with small children aboard, my views might change dramatically if I did, that said

I'm thinking ten Knot winds, with gusts sounds like entry level. I mean I start chomping at the bit and want to get out there at ten. 5-6 doesn't do much for me, above 14 and I'm not yet set up to handle it.

Adding a mainsheet ratchet block, Vang, and Cunningham this season, plan on adding reefing capability in the future.

Smooth Sailing
Lake Springfield, Springfield, IL

[jalmeida51]

I sail here in Punta Gorda, Fl. usually single handed and these called fronts can be a real pain. It seems we are having more of them this year than years before. Hoping we will have less of them by March. When it starts to gust over 12 I need to flatten the sails. I come on hard with the 10 to 1 vang that will get the top 2/3 of the sail flat the bottom 1/3 I flatten with the 4 to 1 outhaul. To get rid of the scallops I come in with the cunningham. If I still can't handle it. I put a30% reef in the main and use a smaller jib. Also drop the main to leeward with the traveler.

If your sails are old chances are they are getting bagged out and it will be hard to flatten them out or get a good reef.

You need a jib sailing with just a main just a waste of time especially tacking in choppy waters, you will be in irons. Instead of running take several reaches and you won't have to worry about jibing.

When the gusts get to be 15 I won't go out or if I am out I will be heading in.

I have updated my standing rigging also. 1/8 shrouds and forestay with turnbuckles, heavy type spreaders with new brackets, new tabernacle hinges with a stainless steel reinforcement for under the cuddy due to the hinge bolts starting to pull through the cuddy.

Installed a jib down haul to douse it real fast and a topping lift for the boom it helps when reefing.

Or you can say the hell with it I will sail another day with wind conditions I like better. No rush we are in Florida with many great days of sailing ahead.

Take Care, be safe, happy sailing, John

[zeroready]

Assuming all of your boat's "systems," especially the chain plates and stays, are in good shape, you'll capsize long before you break anything. I realize that may not be reassuring, but that was your question - are you babying her? No, she's fine.

But sailing with wife and two kids on a gusty day does make one more cautious. Suggest going out for a few blustery sails with just you and your wife. You wrote that you know how to de power the sails, so use those techniques. Ease-Hike-Trim. Flatten the main with any available controls - Vang, Outhaul, Cunningham. Twist off both the main and the jib. Reef the sails if you can. Luff if you must. Don't worry about mast bend, it's supposed to do that. Downwind, don't ease off sheets all the way and don't go dead down wind. At least for me, DDW is a real b(ear) to control, even though the apparent wind is a bit less, I prefer to jibe downwind. Lastly, don't cleat off your, sheets, hold them in hand for quick reaction. Use ratcheting blocks.

As for why 3-4 knots extra wind makes such a difference, there are several reasons. From 10kts to 14kts is still a 40% increase, right? You definitely feel it! Depending on your angles and speed, there's apparent wind, not much for us on our DS'es, but it's also a factor. For what it's worth, apparent wind is how foiling boats, like the AC75's, manage to go much faster than the true wind speed. And remember that the wind power (force on your sails) increases with the cube of the wind speed. In other words: doubling the wind speed gives eight times the wind power.

A gusty wind just magnifies these factors of how you "feel" the wind. Suggestion - teach your kids and (maybe?) your wife how to read the wind on the water. The dark ruffles on the waves, more whitecaps, streaks of foam, all indicate oncoming puffs. And then ask them to call them out to you - "Puff coming in 5,4,3,2,1, Now!" You'll be ready, they'll be ready, and you can all react to it appropriately. Even getting everyone to shift their butts up onto the rail (side deck) helps a lot! Again, something to practice on calmer days and work your way up to really enjoying your gusty days.

Lastly, if you haven't upgraded to the 1/8" steel stays that D&R Marine offers, then plan to do so. Peace of mind. As I wrote at the beginning, the stays and the chainplates are the key to keeping your DS sailing. They hold the sails up. If you really want to test everything, capsize test the boat - pull her over in shallow water or on the beach using the jib halyard (not the main!). See how far she'll go before "the point on no return," you'll be surprised - it's around 60°. You shouldn't be sailing around at that angle, ever, but it's more peace of mind. These Daysailers will take a lot!

Thanks Tom. I did get all new standing rigging from D&R when I dismasted last year. I have the 1/8 inch stays, beefy chainplaits and new bigger turnbuckles. I did not know about the force on the sail being cubed with the wind so the little bit of change in windspeed makes a lot of sense now. I do tend to just hold the mainsheet without cleating when I feel it may be necessary to ease quickly. I think I'm just not really used to how fast it feels in the DS, even when you may only be actually going 5 or 6 knots, it really feels like you're flying! Knowing that I'll capsize before I break anything with the new hardware helps. I'll keep all that in mind next time.

So my gooseneck has a ring on the bottom, I use that and a cleat on the mast below as a downhaul. My main also has a cringle for a cunningham, but I haven't used that yet. I can flip the gooseneck over so the ring is on top. In higher winds, should I flip the gooseneck over so that ring is on top and run the cunningham through that ring? Should I be using both the downhaul and cunningham?

[tomodda]

Good to hear (read) that you have new standing rigging, not so good to hear that you had dismasted. Hopefully all is well now.

Funny, we just had a conversation about downhauls in another thread here. The outcome was that you definitely need at least a static downhaul - a line going from the gooseneck to a cleat, like you have set up - to keep the gooseneck from riding up the sail track when you tighten the main halyard. But tightening the luff of the main is a whole other story. Why would you want to do that? To help flatten the main (although the outhaul and vang are more important for flattening). Since your halyard should already have the mainsail head as high up as it can go, your only choice for tightening the luff is to pull DOWN. You could just pull on the gooseneck, using the ring that you've just mentioned - that's what I do myself. Of course, in a good wind, you'll need some mechanical advantage, on my DS I rigged a 2:1 purchase using a cascade of two blocks. GL calls it my "dynamic downhaul."

However, pulling the gooseneck (and boom) below "Band 2" on the mast is not race-legal. The same problem on the America's Cup boat Columbia led her skipper, Briggs Cunningham to rig a hook through a cringle (reinforced hole) in the luff. Voila! The Cunningham, how to pull down on your sail without breaking the racing rules. But if you're not racing, then a boom downhaul is fine, so leave your gooseneck as-is.

Boom downhaul gives a better flow over the foot of the sail too, although not enough to make a real difference. More of a boat Feng Shui thing, my favorite term for things you'd think make a difference but really don't. Style points Bottom line, leave your gooseneck as is, you're fine. Put together a good boom vang before you worry about a dynamic downhaul.

[zeroready]

Awesome that was most succinct and helpful explanation of the Cunningham I've ever heard thank you.

I do have a vang, it was included with the boat from the PO. I have to admit it took me quite a while to figure out what it was, the PO didn't mention it I just found it in the storage compartment.



I haven't rigged it yet I always forget. But I screwed in a stainless steel bail to the bottom of the mast and put a quicklink on it to connect the vang. So if I have this straight, as I sheet out the downhaul and main sheet become less effective at keeping the sail flat and the aft end of the boom down, giving a fuller sail shape the more I go downwind. The vang will prevent that and keep the sail flat as I sheet out right?

[lemsteraak]

High winds are intimating but DaySailers handle them well. There used to be a big group of DaySailers that sailed SF Bay where there are big winds, currents, chop, waves and cold water. We got a retired SF boat at our club and it was interesting to check out the modifications. It was heavily reinforced and even had a bilge pump that could pump excess water into the centerboard trunk. The sail controls were very interesting. They used a "horse" or a central traveller with a twin mainsheet system. If you pulled on one of the mainsheet lines it was 4:1 but if you pulled on both is was a fast 2:1. Controls like the vang were something like 15 to one and it had a very strong outhaul to flatten the bottom of the sail. In short, a serious high wind capable sailboat.

My point is that if you set up your boat, high winds aren't a big deal. The first thing to learn it to get your boat on a plane. DaySailers get really stable because on a plane they are on top of the water. The hull is so well designed you don't realize you are up on a plane until you look at the wake, it flattens out and you notice you are going quite fast. DaySailers don't normally plane beating into the wind or going dead downwind. The fastest point of sail is a reach and when on a plane, the most stable. With this skill, you can sail your way out of squall and to someplace protected like behind an island.

If you expect to sail in high winds don't reef but instead upgrade some of your controls like your vang and outhaul. Both of these controls will flatten your sail and take the camber out depowering the rig. Some folks will tell you to take down the main and sail under the jib alone but I would recommend trying it before you need to. It is really difficult to sail a DaySailer on only a jib, near impossible to tack so your sailing options are really limited.

I use to think DaySailers were an old man's boat, stodgy and built for touring the harbor with your family. I changed my mind about five years ago when I was helping a friend learn spinnaker technique. We were sailing a a high wind day and got hit with a huge microburst - spinnaker up and I was on the helm. I've never sailed so fast and I just knew were were going to do a death roll. This is when your rig takes control of the boat and you broach - capsize. This DaySailer was very safe and controlled and had a beautiful flat wake and streamed water off the bows like a 505. I sold my Dovekie, a camp cruiser, designed for easy reefing and high winds and bought a DaySailer. In my opinion a DaySailer is far safer boat because you can get up on a plane and sail away to safety.

[tomodda]

You had a Bolger Dovekie? Cool! Phil Bolger's designs are quirky but amazing. I wish he were still with us. But for your main point, yes... On inland or coastal waters the DS can handle surprising amounts of wind. I don't have enough chances to take mine out in a blow, but few times I've done it here in Piedmont Carolina have been a blast.

As for the vang, zeroready, read here:

https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/sail-trim-tip-vang-power

Also do some Google researching on "vang sheeting" in general. Basically, when running with the wind, you use the vang to keep the boom from riding up, and your 3:1 vang is fine for that. But you can and should do a lot more with the vang going upwind. Especially since most of our DS boats don't have a traveler. GreenLake really opened my eyes to that, read some of his posts here re:vang. You'll need at least a 12:1 purchase to take advantage of vang sheeting. I have a 20:1. Well worth the investment though! To start with try using your 3:1 to vang sheet on lower wind days, see how it changes your sailing. Then work your way up. Have fun!

[GreenLake]

A 20% increase in wind strength, all things being equal, will result in a 44% increase in heeling force.

A 50% increase will result in more than doubling the heeling force.

Forces caused by airflow go with the square of the speed. 12x12 is 144, 15x15 is 225. You don't need a calculator if you know your basic squares.

The fact that force increases as the square of the speed makes it necessary to take decisive action when wind speeds increase. You can't just do "a little bit more hiking".

I don't get enough chances to train in higher winds; we either have warm summer nights with gentle breezes. Or we have frontal systems (particularly in colder weather) which can come not just with stronger winds, but also winds that are less steady (very gusty) and therefore immediately very challenging (and not fun unless you have reasonably expert crew).

[lemsteraak]

You guys make a couple great points, the force multiplies with wind strength and the importance of a vang for control.

An important concept to master in high winds is apparent wind, the wind you feel on the boat. DaySailers going directly upwind or downwind don't experience this but when you reach, across the wind, you adjust your sails for variable wind strength. It is why performance boats tack downwind and foilers never feel the wind from behind. As you accelerate the wind direction and strength you feel moves forward because of your speed. It feels like a wind gust but it isn't, your speed increased. So, with the wind gusting and boat speed changing, you can't really cleat your mainsail, it takes a lot of work to keep your sails flat and in tune with the wind. The vang is really helpful here in this because it locks the boom angle in place so you aren't having to haul it down, just in and out.

I don't want to bore you with apparent wind but there is one place where it is really important and counter intutive and that is downwind and during a gybe. Downwind is relativly gentle, the windspeed you feel is only a fraction of the true windspeed. Your reaction is to slow down to gybe, do the opposite, right after a gust when your speed is high and the gust is less, then swing the main over. Sounds simple, but it takes practice and a little courage but you will be rewarded with a crisp, fast and easy gybe.

The hull shape of the DaySailer has everything to do with its good manners in high winds and waves. The gentle progressive arc of the hull allows you to feel where you are in terms of heeling forces. If you go over another 10 degrees, the transition is progressive. The Dovekie, even though they are the stuff of legends, has a flat bottom and steeply sloped sides so you have a very hard chine, where the two meet. When the Dovekie heels, in high winds, it isn't progressive and the boat hunts for the right angle of heel. Yes, the boat can take high winds, but it isn't comfortable nor reassuring. The ability of the DaySailer to plane adds another dimension as it feel like the boat is on rails but still the heeling is progressive and boat is balanced.

The thought of gentle warm winds sound really good right now

[GreenLake]

You guys make a couple great points, the force multiplies with wind strength and the importance of a vang for control.

Just to emphasize this again: the force goes with the square of the wind speed. Double the speed, four times the force.

An important concept to master in high winds is apparent wind, the wind you feel on the boat. DaySailers going directly upwind or downwind don't experience this but when you reach, across the wind, you adjust your sails for variable wind strength.

Sorry, that's not correct as stated. What you mean is that the apparent wind, has the same angle as the true wind under those conditions. It is still different in strength: if you go directly upwind (which you essentially can only do under motor), the speed of the headwind is added directly to the speed of the true wind. In the dead downwind case, it's a true subtraction.

At all other points of sail, the apparent wind results from a vector addition of headwind and true wind. Which means that it's more forward than the true wind on all points of sail (except DDW).

One consequence of this is that as your boat accelerates, the apparent wind moves forward; but also, if you coast into a sudden lull you can get a "velocity header", as in the dying true wind, the apparent wind becomes dominated by the headwind from coasting under your remaining momentum.

It is why performance boats tack downwind and foilers never feel the wind from behind. As you accelerate the wind direction and strength you feel moves forward because of your speed. It feels like a wind gust but it isn't, your speed increased. So, with the wind gusting and boat speed changing, you can't really cleat your mainsail, it takes a lot of work to keep your sails flat and in tune with the wind. The vang is really helpful here in this because it locks the boom angle in place so you aren't having to haul it down, just in and out.

Yes. the more variable the wind is, the less you'd want to cleat your main. True sea breezes tend to have reduced turbulence and if you are on a reach and the winds are stable and not too strong, you might get away with cleating your main and just adjusting course a little bit to match any oscillations in the direction of the wind.

I don't want to bore you with apparent wind but there is one place where it is really important and counter-intutive and that is downwind and during a gybe. Downwind is relatively gentle, the windspeed you feel is only a fraction of the true windspeed. [if] Your reaction is to slow down to gybe, do the opposite, right after a gust when your speed is high and the gust is less, then swing the main over. Sounds simple, but it takes practice and a little courage but you will be rewarded with a crisp, fast and easy gybe.

In effect, you are advocating to gybe during a "velocity header", then?

The hull shape of the DaySailer has everything to do with its good manners in high winds and waves. The gentle progressive arc of the hull allows you to feel where you are in terms of heeling forces. If you go over another 10 degrees, the transition is progressive. The Dovekie, even though they are the stuff of legends, has a flat bottom and steeply sloped sides so you have a very hard chine, where the two meet. When the Dovekie heels, in high winds, it isn't progressive and the boat hunts for the right angle of heel. Yes, the boat can take high winds, but it isn't comfortable nor reassuring. The ability of the DaySailer to plane adds another dimension as it feel like the boat is on rails but still the heeling is progressive and boat is balanced.

I only ever seem to get close, that is, a bit beyond nominal hull speed. Or "forced mode" as some call it.

The thought of gentle warm winds sound really good right now

Doesn't it, now?