Basic Painting Questions

[GreenLake]

Which members?

On my DS1 there are five.

There's some wood that provides a backing plate to the foredeck cleat. And in the stern the same for the gudgeons. (The latter is encased in my boat).

Then there are the "carlins" under the side decks and transom deck. Those show signs of dry rot. I've treated them from the screw holes with System Three RotFix, and then used laminating epoxy to fill spaces where the holes for the screws had loosened. I figure, with the coamings installed, their main function is as a backing plate for attaching the coamings. As long as the screws hold, I'm not too worried.

I would really check the first two, if you have them, but the other three, you have that extra special set of coamings on your boat, if I remember, and that should give you the needed support, as long as the screws are holding.

[marcusg]

I think I'll just leave the members as they are for now; I'm just trying to get this thing all finished up to hit the water, finally.

I bought a nice looking 2.5 Suzuki long shaft yesterday, and when I went to put it on my motor well today, it became clear I'll have to make some kind of bracket for it. The ledge of the motor well where the clamps go is lower than the rest of the stern deck, such that the motor and handle can't be turned side to side.

noroom (Small).jpg (85.02 KiB) Viewed 704840 times

motorwell (Small).jpg (69.94 KiB) Viewed 704840 times

Of course, I could either laminate a 2x4 and glue it in that recessed section at the back of the well, effectively raising the motor, or put a similarly laminated, or steel, bracket on the stern side of the well, throughbolted to inside the well. My main question is how much wiggle room do I have to raise it? The manual for the motor says the cavitation plate needs to be one inch below the bottom of the boat. But does that mean bottom of the middle of the boat, or the bottom below where I'm mounting it? Because if it's the middle then I don't really have any wiggle room at all. Ideally, I'd be able to raise it about 3" to give that handle enough free play.

[GreenLake]

A previous owner lowered the opening. Mine goes to deck height. So, there's nothing inherently "wrong" about undoing that.

I wonder whether you are chasing a non-issue. Unlike a runabout your sailboat has a pretty powerful rudder. So you don't need to turn the outboard to steer. I set my electric motor to a fixed position and don't bother steering with it. Now, this only works if the motor has a revers, or at least a true neutral, whether with a centrifugal clutch or manually selected; if you need to turn your motor 180 degrees to be able to slow down, all bets are off. But assuming that your motor can be used in a fixed position, why not?

I've looked that motor up online and it looks like it has Forward and neutral, but not reverse. I sail on and off the dock most of the time, so I'm used to working with momentum and lack of a "reverse". You may be better off using neutral and a paddle held into the water as a brake than trying to do the 180 degree rotation.

To me, the main limiting factor would be whether the motor can be raised (tilted). If the current configuration blocks that, then you may need to raise it.

[marcusg]

Yeah it would be nice to just use my tiller and keep the motor locked straight, but I both wouldn’t have enough room for the forward/reverse lever and the motor wouldn’t tilt forward with the transmission lever and motor tiller/throttle being in the way.

Any thoughts on how low the prop and cavitation plate need to be in the water? I guess at this point its a question of do I raise it enough to steer it itself, or do I just move it further away with some kind of actual store bought mount so it can tip up and I can operate the transmission (while it can still stay as low in the water as it is now.)

[GreenLake]

The transom height is 17". If this is the 20" long shaft then it should work. If not, you were sold the wrong motor -- or you need to invest in one of those brackets that are mounted on the transom - look for "motor bracket" here.

I can't imagine the 3" not referring to the hull in front of the propeller. Otherwise, how deep would the plate have to be if you were mounting this on a small keelboat?

[marcusg]

Done!

I ended up building a motor "bracket" out of 2 layers of glued-together 1.25" black walnut, as we have a lot of it on the farm. Epoxied/fiberglassed it for extra strength, and through bolted it to the transom. It's at the right height where I can both use the handle to steer, turn it around for reverse, and the cav plate is roughly equal with the hull line below it.

For some reason, when I painted the EZ-deck on the floor and non-skid deck portions, I had tons of paint intrusion under the masking tape. I used that blue "sharp lines" 3m tape. I didn't have that problem in other areas, so I'm wondering if maybe when I solvent cleaned maybe I got too much solvent on the tape or something? It was pretty universally everywhere too..which is a bummer, but, just cosmetic so no biggy. Overall I'm really happy. Going to take it out on a local pond first to make sure we remember how to rig it and the centerboard deploys, then off to our version of a "lake" - a chunky part of the Mississippi called Lake Onalaska. Thanks for much for the help everyone, and especially Greenlake.

last leg final (Small).jpg (75.46 KiB) Viewed 704763 times

[GreenLake]

Looks fantastic!

(Don't have a clue on the paint intrusion, but if you washed the edges of your tape then perhaps all bets are off?)

[thoughtfulreef]

Hello!

I'm back on the forum as I'm finally getting around to my projects to get ready for the sailing season in the Pacific Northwest! (I don't have covered space to work so this wasn't tenable for most projects until recently)

Today I'm taking on painting the cockpit and this is raising several questions. I was reading the information on this thread from a couple years ago for information so I'm attaching it here along with some photos for reference.

My goals:
Finish this job in a reasonable amount of time. (I sailed like this all last year for better or worse and I don't think any issues came up.)
I was flaking off paint all last year and every time I was bailing out my boat (often, I got into plenty of trouble with wind and currents) some of these paint chips were bailed into the Columbia River I imagine and I'd like to avoid this.
maintain against deterioration of the inner hull, It doesn't matter if it looks nice

The questions:
How did gelcoat work out a couple seasons later Greenlake? Would you (or anyone) recomend this option even though I have inherited several patched areas of unknown compound, have mixed paint and exposed fiberglass, and I'd like to fill some spots with simple epoxy (laminate? the kind they sell at westmarine in little packets for small jobs). (see questions and photo below to weigh in on if that is a bad idea)
I have small area along center board where i was able to peel up a later of matting (i think this is correct term, woven layer of fiberglass not captured in resin) along the center board. This area is hard underneath as i run a screwdriver along it but did expose a lowered groove that will fill with water. I was thinking of putting epoxy here to protect this area. Same with small gouge on aft aspect of center board housing.
If not gel coat, then any marine paint with primer first is the way to go? Are products of 'above the waterline' suitable even though this area often has standing water in it?


Thank you all for the guidance as always! keeping this rough boat going and taking out lots of folks for adventures on the Columbia and hopefully this year on the Puget sounds. The future crew thanks you as well!

Best,
Kyle

[GreenLake]

Thanks for checking back. My gelcoat has been holding up well since I did it. I chose to tint it with universal tint colors, so the color is a light to medium gray. I mention that because on a white gelcoat I'd probably see lots of footprints and scuff marks. My only regret is that I was not able to do the entire inside of the cuddy, and where I left off, the edge doesn't make a clean line, so it doesn't look as nice in that area. In contrast, the main cockpit looks very nice. Gelcoat is applied in a thicker layer than paint, so it will tend to take care of roughness better than paint. However, I did not worry about creating a super smooth surface because it's a floor. And the laminate itself wasn't fully smooth.

Having everything in a uniform color was already a big improvement. I agree about dealing with any depression that can trap water, and/or covering exposed laminate. When applying gelcoat, make sure that you don't apply a layer that is too thin! That impacts the gelcoat's ability to cure. If in doubt, you could perhaps use a notched spreader and then after you've deposited an equal amount everywhere, gently flatten the ridges with a flat spreader.

Instead of using epoxy, you might use 3M Premium Filler or 3M High Strength Repair Filler. The former is more cosmetic, the latter is good for deeper/wider depressions, or where you need to fix an edge (as in a centerboard or rudder). Both of these are polyester based. (Technically Vinylester). They are definitely compatible with gelcoat and would remove that worry. I think one of both belong in your toolkit (I get more use out of the repair filler, I find). One advantage they have over epoxy is that they cure much faster, so you can get more done in a day.

Gelcoat over epoxy. Some of the issue seems to be with poor quality epoxy. I've used various epoxies from SystemThree and they can be covered (I can't speak to other reputable brands like West or Mas). You need to be really accurate in measuring and you should clean the epoxy using water and soap after it cures. That removes the amine blush that can be formed. If you then give the epoxy a good rough sanding (after washing), perhaps down to 40 grit, for a good mechanical bond, I think you'll find that your gelcoat will hold. (Despite the oft-repeated warnings).

If your repairs are small, you could simply use the 3M products to be sure, but if you already have the epoxy, I believe you can make that work. (To check whether your mixing and washing / sanding work out, just do a test on a square foot of plywood - you can use it to check out the amount of tint you need to use at the same time).

[thoughtfulreef]

Thank you for the reply Greenlake!

I apologize to ask for your specific help and not take the advice. I decided to go with a different option than gel coat as I wasn't confident I wouldn't mess it up.

I bought and applied pettit primer so far. I also bought and have not yet applied the Pettit EZ-Bilge paint product. I went with this option because I thought it would be tough and among the paint options (beside the expensive below the water line options) would deal well with standing water. Also it was relatively inexpensive. Any reason why applying this bilge paint should be avoided?

I bought white as the only options in bilge paint were white and a dark grey. I'm going to try to get it tinted a nice color.

I came up with additional questions but will add them to other threads where they make more sense.

Question for here: I took notice of this exposed wood on the interior aspect of the transom which seems be there to reinforce the two brackets which hold the posts of the Rudder. The wood is partly exposed and has other sections that are well covered. Currently exposed aspect should not be exposed to standing water. Should i do more than coat this well in paint? Lazy part of me would like to leave it at that, but I'd like to protect the wood and avoid bigger problems in the future. Currently everywhere I knock on the wood is firm/I'm not detecting any rot.

Thanks for any advice!

[GreenLake]

Pettit EZ-Poxy can be very durable, but you need to give it time (!) to cure. Also, you should thin it, as suggested as unthinned it forms a thick film that takes even longer to cure and will stay soft. Several thin coats with the interval stated in the directions are your key to success.

As to exposure to standing water, I have no experience. If your hull has a drain, be sure it's open if the boat is stored where rain can get at it. (Tarps are not foolproof). As you are fairly committed at this point, no sense doing anything but completing the job.

Exposed wood: it's hard to see, but if you really have bare wood, then either leave it as is (until it fails), or remove it completely, make sure it's dry, coat it on all 6 sides and on the inside of each screw hole with Laminating Epoxy or an epoxy product like SystemThree's Clear Coat. That will seal out moisture. I would use one layer of the lightest glass cloth on the side facing the cockpit as a guard against anything bumping and penetrating the seal. After that, you'd paint it as normal. Also for UV protection.

If that's done correctly, the wood should stay sealed and dry. Optionally, you could apply something like BoardDefense which suppresses any undetected rot or dry rot from spreading. But you can't have any voids or uncoated sides, as moisture then can wick in, but not dry out. This method would be most preferable if you expect standing water.

Alternatively, if you can't remove it, you might treat it as above, but then coat it with some wood oil product, preferably something that can be reapplied without having to take the old coat off. That would not prevent moisture in the air from getting in, but would protect it from splashes and short exposures. But, being only a partial seal, it would allow it to dry out (slowly), when the boat is not being used.

[thoughtfulreef]

Thanks for the tips on the exposed wood.

I am planing on using the EZ-Bilge product from Pettit as opposed to EZ-poxy and I'm wondering if there are any considerations there. I imagine the guidance on apply several thin layers still applies. But I'm wondering if it has very bad UV protection as its made for the Bilge or something along those lines. I'm hoping that is worth it though, as I imagine it can take the standing water that is sometimes there while I have the boat on the water or I'm way and the tarps fails. (this was the case this winter, I was disappointed to see my elaborate tarp job didn't work all that well when I got back to the boat after months away). Anyway, the floor is usually covered with floorboards for some sun protection so I'm thinking the bilge formulation is reasonable.

[GreenLake]

You can look up the specs for these online.

They confirm the guidance on several thin layers, which is not surprising since the products use the same basic chemistry.

A bilge paint may be formulated to better deal with standing water, but also fuel oils, which is common in bilges for keelboats. The data sheet claims resistance against abrasion.

There may be less attention to UV filters; not sure whether that should be a problem (unless you live in Texas and keep your boat uncovered).

Think about whether you want gloss, or whether you might even go the other direction and add an additive to increase anti-slip protection...