DS 2 Selfbailing

[njsurfboat]

I read the recent thread about the DS 2 self bailing and reregistered for the forum after a 3 year absence to add my comments. I was surprised to read what I consider inaccurate comments.I had a 1981 blue hull DS 2 for several years and last year replaced it with an all white 1974 DS2. When I bought the first boat there was the customary west marine plug type fitting instead of the bailer. I called D and R and Rudy versed me on the operation of the bailer that I bought from him. He stated that the boat self bails at rest and when left in the water the bailer should always remain OPEN. My inner hull drain plug has mysteriously been moved starboard, just above the water line on the recent boat. Possibly the old style bayonette plug wasnt sealing? The higher transom plug has no effect, its just good to leave open during dry storage or on the trailer if the bailer get clogged with leaves.
I kept the first boat on an unprotected mooring on the toms river. there usually was about an inch of water in the back well. Last year the boat did have two "sinking incidents'. The first time the boat swamped almost to the gunwals but stayed upright. The second it swamped and rolled and wasnt as easy to deal with. One event involved 60-70- mph winds that left boats up on the beach. Its possible that a wave broke over the boat during one event or a wind induced capsize, the other may have involved such a sudden severe rainfall that the bailing couldnt keep up. A pebble or barnacle can also foul the bailer and keep the float ball from seating.I choose a different strategy with my "newer" boat in that I am not going to have any motor on board. I had used a 5 hp that I feel compromised the effectivess of the bailing as well as sailing performance. (mounted oarlocks!) Without a motor, the bottom of the transom now bairly touches the water making the bailing more certain and the well bone dry.The bottom of the cockpit well is now about an inch above the waterline. As the boat bobs it aids the bailing. The 5 hp brought the stern down about 2 inches. Also note that the boat doesnt self bail at rest with anyone aboard.
Anyway, if the DS 2 didnt have this self bailing capability (and ability to recover from a capsize), I would have no reason not to own a DS1, which I prefer for its roominess and comfort.

[Roger]

You implied, but were not entirely clear in the telling of your second incident of roll capsize that the boat still did not sink. (swamped and rolled) Could you clarify please. I have an ongoing discussion with the harbour master and docks supervisor regarding my DS II at a slip. I keep the mooring plug out, although it is somewhat higher than yours, sitting about 7" above the cockpit sump and about 2" above the waterline. This is not a heck of a lot of rainwater, and is relatively easy to pump out, but the dock supervisor sees the open hole and puts the bung in, then pumps or bails. I tell him to leave it out, it will never sink!

In a related story, I left my boat at anchor overnight during a heavy storm. There was a leak into the bilge (poor seal on an inspection port), and that area filled with water. The mooring plug was out, so there only collected 7" of water in the cockpit. The waterline did not change significantly. I then plugged the mooring plug and moved it over to the boat launch to retrive it. The waves proceeded to fill the cockpit, significantly above the mooring plug, and it still did not sink.

I would apprciate you elaborating more on your second incident, so that I can get a clear understanding of what was closed, and how the boat was in the water, (swamped and rolled). Was it on its side, turtled, how deep the water was, whether the mast floated, how much water was in the cuddy, whether the cuddy was swamped as well, whether the cuddy was closed up or not. All of those details.

This would help me with my case to the dock supervisor to leave the bung out. I think these are great little boats BTW. Good to see your story.

BTW I also agree with you that the De Persia self bailer seems to only work while under way. I removed the metal ball from mine, which seems to have imporved the speed of water evacuation.

[njsurfboat]

My understanding was the depersias was the name of the metal earlier bailers? I retrofitted with the plastic unit available from D&R. It is obviously in the floor of the well at the aft end of the cockpit. That is what I leave open, on the mooring, and underway. No motion is necessary for it to self bail on the mooring when nobody is aboard. My initial feeling when I got yhe first boat was to leave the bailer closed and the transom plug out, but I got tired of bailing 5-10 gallaons of water, and seeing my boat float low. MY swamping involved a record rainstorm and a failure to bail fast enough is my guess. The bailer may have fouled. The second incident may have been a wind or wave caused capsize. both time a 5hp 50 pound motor was mounted. The water depth was 5 feet and the masthead was stuck in the mud keeping the boat from going 180 degrees. My newer (but actually older) boat floats much higher aft due to the lack of a motor.

[Roger]

the important point is that it was still floating, and not sunk. I'll impress that point to the docks supervisor. Was the cuddy full of water at all?

[SailorGuy]

I just got a 1975 DSII and was trying to figure out the drain system. Thanks for the info on the Depersia. I want to confirm that keeping it OPEN on the morning holds for the older metal variety as well. Thanks for your reply.

BTW, should I be able to see the ball when I remove the plug? Also looking for a backup plug. It's a hard to find size (11/16ths diameter).

[Roger]

The de persia bailer is only for use while underway, otherwise it will let water in. Keep it plugged while moored. There is a second plug part way up the transom just near the waterline. Remove it at the mooring. When it rains, the cockpit sump will fill until it drains at the waterline mooring drain.

[SailorGuy]

Thanks for the clarification. I launched the boat this past Sunday in very light winds. Was able to sail up to my mooring. While motionless on the the mooring, I unplugged the despersia and water bubbled in. I replaced the plug and left the higher transom plug out for drainage.

From other posts, it appears that the plastic self bailer retrofit can be left upon on the mooring to improve drainage. I will plan on doing a replacement over the winter.

BTW, Layline.com sells the Sunfish Bailer for $40. I believe this is the same one D&R sells for $48. See http://www.layline.com/product/10841/333

[TIM WEBB]

I think my boat has/had the remnants of one of these, specifically, the hexagonally shaped piece. There was nothing else there, above or below. That was hard to plug, so I pried it out of there, and now all that's left is a corroding metal (Aluminum? Zinc pipe?) through piece that looks like it might have had threads in it, say, back in the last ice age!

Now, I plug the hole with one of those rubber plugs that has a wing nut type of thing on it, that's meant to be used on car oil pan drains that are stripped. I couldn't find one that fit the diameter of the hole very well, so I use an under-sized one with a short length of silicone surgical tubing jammed onto it. Works like a charm - no leaks - but of course provides no bailing action ...

Just curious: what are the two prongs seen in the picture of the Sunfish bailer?

Years ago I had a 16' Larsen scow that had a very effective scupper system, consisting of two metal "hatches" (for lack of a better description) on either side of the transom bilge, that you could push down, and a spring-like thing would hold them in place. As long as you were under way, those things would empty that boat of any water lickety split! I mean, you could hear the sucking sound of the water being drained out. Of course, they did no good when at a standstill, and if you forgot and left them open, the water just poured in. Anyone out there have any experience with that type of bailer?

- Tim

[Roger]

It is called an Elvstom Bailer.

see page 2 of this pdf

http://www.binksonline.com.au/store/prod625.htm

[Sean McGuire]

The prongs in the Sunfish bailer are to hold the ball inside the cup. The ball floats up to plug the hole when the boat is at rest and gets pulled down and back when the boat is moving. Water going by the cup creates suction and pulls water out of the boat. At least that's the way is it supposed to work. Whenever I use mine underway, there is always about an inch of water (maybe a gallon at most) in the cockpit at the stern. I mostly use mine once the boat is back on the trailer.

Sean McGuire
1984 DSII "Iona"

[TIM WEBB]

Aaaahh, I see. Well, I'll take another look at mine - maybe I can install one of these in there again. Of course, most of my efforts are focused on keeping water out of the boat to begin with!

Roger, that link leads to a jam cleat, and I don't see a "page two", but I did a search on the site and found this one. It's similar to what the Larsen had:

http://www.binksonline.com.au/store/category178_3.htm

Not sure if/how well that would work on a DS2 ...

- Tim

[Roger]

Well you are right Tim, that is a jam cleat. I was using that pic in another post, and must have pasted it by accident. Now when I go looking for a good pic of an Elvstrom bailer I cannot find it. Anderson also makes them, but your picture is close enough. Your are also correct in querying how well it would work in a DS II as the Elvstrom's were meant for single hull boats like lasers.

The best word descriptor that I can use for them, short of a picture is that they are a sping loaded bottom mounted flap that allows water to get sucked out while moving. The spring, not only keeps it open, but keeps it closed, when 'sprung'.

I still thing that the best way to retrofit the dePersia bailer is to remove the ball, and plug, and replace with a wind cork. It increases speed of water evacuation and is generally fool proof.

[TIM WEBB]

There's an Elvstrom bailer at the top of page 2 of this pdf. Maybe this is the one you were looking for?

http://www.foghmarine.com/2006Catalogue ... %20res.pdf

Yes, only works with a single hull, as was the Larsen.

[sunsetbrew]

I still thing that the best way to retrofit the dePersia bailer is to remove the ball, and plug, and replace with a wind cork. It increases speed of water evacuation and is generally fool proof.

Sorry to bump an old thread. Does anyone know what a wind cork is? I am thinking he may have meant wine cork, but then how does a wine cork speed evacuation?

[Sean McGuire]

I think Roger was saying that removing the ball increases the speed of water evacuation. When using the bailer while moving, water flows through the "cup" section and around the ball. If the ball wasn't there, the water would have less resistance and drain quicker. The downside of removing the ball is that if you stop, water will flow back through until you plug it up manually. The ball is a little extra insurance. I generally sail with the plug in and only pull it if I get enough water in the boat to need to drain it.

Sean McGuire
1984 DSII "Iona"